CARBINE QUESTION ***Photos added*** Check this out!

[45lcolt]

I've been looking to get a 2nd Spencer carbine to go with the 56-50 1865 Spencer/Burnside I recently obtained (havent shot it yet, waiting for  S&S to get the center fire adapter from from their distributor) so a nice 1860 56-56 is what I am going to go with.  I've seen one on a web site and it looks good, but it doesnt have the cavalry sling swivel  like the "normal" carbines. The swivel isn't missing, the receiver and butt stock are not made for one.  It has a 22" bbl with what looks like a correct front sight.  Looks like a rifle receiver and butt stock. Is this "carbine" a cut down rifle or did Spencer make carbines without the cavalry swivel?  I cant find any reference to such an animal in the Spencer book by Roy Marcot or anywhere else.

[DJ]

I've seen a lot of Spencers, but I've never seen or heard of a factory-made carbine that didn't have the cutout in the receiver for the sling bar.  I suppose it's theoretically possible that it's a one-of-a-kind factory-made carbine with no sling bar (in which case the price would likely reflect its extreme rarity).  But I think it is much more likely that it's a cut-down or rebarreled rifle. 

[Two Flints]

Hi 45lcolt,

Can you provide a link to the web site so we can have a look see?

Two Flints

[45lcolt]

Hi Two Flints:  The site is at this link: http://www.downeastantiques.com/. Click on  Search Our Database at the top of the page, and enter 6923 in the box for item number to search for.  That will bring up all the picutres etc.  It doesnt have "model 1860" on the top of the receiver where the Spencer Repeating Rifle Company data appears. I'm not a collector but dont want to get a junk gun. Tks for the response

Posting these for coltl45, Two Flints










45lcolt

[45lcolt]

Two Flints: I just spoke with the rep at that site and he says it does appear to be a cut down rifle.  Pretty well done, but a cut down rifle. Says the bore  doesnt show any marks etc at the muzzle. Seeing as I want a shooter not a collector, you think this might be worth while?

45Lcolt

[Two Flints]

Same site, another Spencer...http://www.joesalter.com/detail.php?f_qryitem=6287 ...for your consideration.

Two Flints

[45lcolt]

I have been eyeballing that one too. Its been refinished but at least it is a true carbine.  I decided not to go for the cut down rifle, I talked with the guy again and the end of the barrel is not exactly straight so it was obvious to him that the barrel had been cut off.  Dont know if they cut off the rifle stock or just stuck a carbine fore arm on it. I didnt have him take it off to look.  But I appreciate the responses here. I have been reading a lot of the other threads and have got some good info on the Spencer.
  Now I'll have to come up with a bullet mold for a 56-56 'cause I'm gonna get a 1860 sooner or later.

45Lcolt

[French Jack]

If the price on the cut down one is reasonable, it would make a good shooter.  It is very little trouble to true up and recrown the muzzle in a lathe.  If the price was good, it might be worthwhile.  Believe me, unless you are wanting to sling the gun, the slide bar and ring are just extra weight and noisy to boot.

[Bead Swinger]

Hi 45Lcolt!
Best wishes on your hunting - 56-56's are a hoot to shoot - Having a cut down rifle would be almost as fun as a full three bander, but if the price is right, it's definitely better to have a shooter. I wasn't brave enough to look at the prices - but she sure looks like a nice, handy piece  . I'll bet that's a really fun SN.

If you're looking for a 56-56 mold, then Rapine's the way to go. The only question is which one - they have a .535 and a .546 (I think). I use the .535 in a 56-56 rifle, and they shoot great. The cut-down 50-70 brass available from Buffalo Arms is also a decent investment - they work better than the ones I cut down myself. Two flints started a special list with some good 56-56 reloading info.

Let us know how your hunting goes!

[Arizona Trooper]

That is a cut down rifle for sure. Spencer didn't make any M1860 carbines until about sn 10K, other than a couple tool room specials before the rifle contract got going. However, they did cut down some left over rifles after the war, and they built some M-1865s with 22" heavy barrels that look for all the world like cut down rifle barrels. All of them that I have seen are early M-1865s, and very few at that.

My opinion is that the price is a bit steep unless it has a great Springfield Research Service letter. THe SRS website is down at the moment, so I couldn't check the number. It's very close to my M-1860 rifle (# 8996), for whatever that's worth.

CW Spencers are a hoot to shoot. Looks through the old postings and you'll find a lot of information on loading the heeled bullets. Don't buy a bullet mould until you get your carbine/rifle! Bore size varies a good bit with these. Also, the grooves taper in depth .002" to .003" from breech to muzzle. If you slug at 0.535", you'll need a bullet about 0.540", or cast very soft so that they will bump up and fill the grooves. Otherise accuracy will be lousy.

[Two Flints]

The web site that originally listed the modified Spencer rifle to carbine change as mentioned above has now adjusted their information (bold and italics below) to explain the alteration.

This Spencer shows serial number 8226 on the frame top to left of the hammer. Other features are standard 6 groove rifling. 22" barrel and no sling bar or ring on the left side. The barrel breech shows a small letter "H" inspectors mark at the left breech. "Spencer Repeating/Rifle Co. Boston, Mass./Pat'D March 6, 1860". The metal has an overall gray/brown patina. No military markings on the wood which grades fair/good with some chipping on the forened and an old repaired crack at the wrist, now barely visible. Good to very good bore with light pitting and strong rifling. We have just discovered that this item was a rifle that was cut down to a carbine. Antique

Two Flints

[45lcolt]

Mighty nice of them wasnt it?  I have decided to put a hold on buying another Spencer -  recent purchases of a Smith Carbine, an 1871 Springfield rolling block, a Starr carbine, and a serious look at a Sharps converstion to 50-70, puts a crimp on resources.  But I certainly cant rule it out all together.
Certainly do appreciate the inputs to my question. 

45Lcolt

[Snakeeater]

Although since buying #8226 in 2009, I have restored the rifle to full length, I read just lately about Company H of the 5th Iowa Cavalry having been formed from a company from Nebraska, who were engaged in the cavalry action at Farmington, TN (October 7, 1863) when Wilder's Brigade tangled with Wheeler around Shelbyville and Duck River. The 5th Iowa Cavalry did not receive Spencer carbines until just a few days after 14 November 1864. Before this they had been armed with Hall's carbines, Remington revolvers, and old heavy pattern cavalry Sabres. "Half the men had carbines, the other half revolvers, and each man a poor sabre." But in General Rousseau's raid in July 1864, his command had consisted of Harrison's 8th Indiana Cavalry, 2nd Kentucky and 9th Ohio Cavalry composing the First Brigade, and the 5th Iowa and 4th Tennessee Cavalry and a section of artillery composing the Second Brigade, during the raid revealed the 8th Indiana Cavalry was armed with Spencer carbines.

Of course, prior to October 1863, when the 8th Indiana was reorganized, it had formerly comprised the 39th Indiana Volunteer Infantry (Mounted), being one of the infantry units that Major General Rosecrans had setup, like Wilder's, under the concept of mounted infantry, and equipped with Spencer Rifles subsequent to the first 2000 Spencer Rifles that were sent to Louisville Depot in April 1863.

So either the 8th Indiana Cavalry were armed with both rifles and carbines, or the carbines they carried were rifles that had been cut-down to carbines like was done to #8226? It is certainly an intriguing idea and one that makes a lot of sense given the manner that the Spencer rifle was carried by mounted troops versus a cavalry carbine with swivel on the side. As I described elsewhere with regard to #8226, the trooper who had carried it, evidently used the rear sling swivel to hang the rifle from his carbine sling, given the wear pattern on the buttstock rubbing against a sling swivel on a carbine shoulder sling off the trooper's side. The rifle's barrel would have been too long and unwieldy to have been carried this way had it not been cut-down to carbine length.