the "six o'clock" bullseye target hold

[Navy Six]

Since this is the Christmas season and everyone should be in a good mood, I thought it the right time to ask a dumb question: what is the origin/reason for holding "six o'clock" on a black bullseye target? I don't prefer this hold myself as it seems to me that you are sighting in a gun to shoot high. I almost always hear the "experts" advocate this sighting method but no explanation as to why. I have done a good deal of reading over the years and about the only one I remember not partial to this sight picture was Elmer Keith who I will paraphrase "the place to aim is where you want to hit". This is simply curiosity on my part.  Hope everyone has a blessed Christmas!

[Coffinmaker]

Hummmmmmmm.  Ah .............. Well ............ Dunno...... Except Maybe Perhaps ..........

The Military.  I blame the Military.  Corse military sights.  Every military pistol or rifle I have had experience with in "as issued" form had simple "partridge" type slot and post sights.  At anything over 30 feet, the front sight covered the average black bullseye (Why doe we cll it a bullseye anyway) completely.  Couldn't see the target.

Setting the target ON TOP of the post meant you could actually "see" the target.  Conversely, if you put the top of the post in the center of mass for a "human" target (yup, the ENEMY) you'd hit your adversary somewhere in the body clear out to about 200 paces.  Made it real easy to standardize training, sight picture, sight adjustments and hopefully ...... body count (Thanks MacNamara).

Personally, I have never sighted anything I shoot to a "6 o'clock" hold.  Always went with Elmer.  Always sighted to put my point of impact right behind my sight blade.

Anybody else???

[Baltimore Ed]

In my early newbe days of shooting my wife's uncle, who was an accomplished High Power shooter, taught me the sight picture that I needed to strive for when shooting iron sighted rifles as ' pumpkin on a post'. The black bullseye being the pumpkin and the front sight the post. Now where that came from I couldn't say. My personal opinion is that it's much easier to see the top edge of the front sight against the lower edge of the black bull with a determined amount of daylight between those edges and on either side of the front sight than to put the black front sight in the middle of a black bull. Can't see the edges so you don't really know where you're aiming. You don't have this problem with scopes or red dots so you can aim where you want to hit.

[Will Ketchum]

I think Coffinmaker pretty well nailed it. When the Marines trained us we shot at a 36" bulls eye at 300 yards. In order to calculate your battle sights we used our 300 yard dope minus 6 clicks. This would put us at point of aim hits. (One click equal one minute of angle at 300 yards 1 click would move the point of aim 3")
As Coffinmaker said the 6 o'clock hold gives a more precise aiming point.

Will Ketchum

[Dave T]

From the time I bought my first handgun in the spring of 1967 until last week at the range, I've always wanted my guns to shoot where I put the top of the front sight. Used to always sight in at 25 yards but now a days I can't see the target clearly enough to hold a group so I've been setting adjustable sights for 20 yards. With fixed sights I'm more picky about windage but will take a hit a little above the POA at 20 yards. That will make hitting the boiler room of a silhouette out to 50 yards easy.

Dave

PS: Partridge is a bird. Patridege is a style of sight. (smile)

[Major 2]

In my early newbe days of shooting my wife's uncle, who was an accomplished High Power shooter, taught me the sight picture that I needed to strive for when shooting iron sighted rifles as ' pumpkin on a post'. The black bullseye being the pumpkin and the front sight the post. Now where that came from I couldn't say. My personal opinion is that it's much easier to see the top edge of the front sight against the lower edge of the black bull with a determined amount of daylight between those edges and on either side of the front sight than to put the black front sight in the middle of a black bull. Can't see the edges so you don't really know where you're aiming. You don't have this problem with scopes or red dots so you can aim where you want to hit.

You shot your wife's Uncle ?   

[Trailrider]

While I was taught by several instructors (NOT in the military...Air Force didn't give much small arms instruction...just shoot at the center of mass on a silhouette target with a Navy-reject M10 revolver at 25 yds), I have always used a "center hold" with the top of the front sight where I wanted the shot to go.  I've heard this called a "Navy hold", but since the Marines always taught "pumpkin-on-a-post", quien sabe? 

[Coffinmaker]

Wonder if that's why folks look at me funny when I talk about going Pesant hunting each fall.  I really like Peasant funder glass and roast Pesant.  Funny how spellcheck doesn't work alla time idnit.  Deadly lampshade and all ......... 

And a Partridge inna Pear Tree.  Teemany "e's" (snicker)

[Coal Creek Griff]

I don't know where I got this, but I've always thought that the 6-o'clock hold was the traditional target-sighting hold and that the "combat" center hold came along later in the 20th Century.  I tend to be more precise with the 6-o'clock hold when I'm trying for tight groups with open sights.  If I'm in a hurry, like shooting someone who is  trying to kill me, I'd prefer a gun sighted for "combat" hold.  My "old west" guns are sighted for 6-o'clock hold.  My defensive guns are sighted for center hold.

CC Griff

[Baltimore Ed]

Why would I shoot my wife's Uncle Tommy? He was a swell guy. Took me to Camp Perry even. Maybe I should have stuck a comma in there.

[pony express]

Why would I shoot my wife's Uncle Tommy? He was a swell guy. Took me to Camp Perry even. Maybe I should have stuck a comma in there.

Proper punctuation saves lives!

[1961MJS]

Hi,

I shoot 6 or more bullseye matches every year.  The six-o'clock hold is used so that you can see that the front and back iron sights are aligned and that they are under the target ball.  A center hold is much harder to see with a black front sight and a black front sight super-imposed on a black target. 

Later     

[Guns Garrett]

When I was shooting NM/Bullseye many years ago, it worked for me that I would use center-mass for 50 yd, and 6 o'clock for 25 yd.  I didn't have to change my sight dope.  I used the same technique for .22, CF, and .45, and it was not unusual to end up with 99-9X, or possibles on both strings.  Like most shooting techniques, "if it's stupid, but works, it isn't stupid."

[1961MJS]

Hi Guns

Black front, Black Rear, and Black Target?  I'd never have hit anything, I even have a skinny front sight so there's light on both sides of the front sight.  Dang.

See you in Nebraska in June.

Later