Cimarron Thunderer frustrations

[OD#3]

I know these are fantasy guns, but I always thought that gripframe was elegant.  So when my pal brought me his brand spankin-new 4 3/4 inch Thunderer to look at, I found myself wanting one.  As luck would have it (or not so lucky), he didn't much care for it.  He thought it was cool, but he was regretting having gone with an unauthentic version as his first SAA.  And his Cimarron suffered from timing issues on at least two chambers (I later discovered it was three); the bolt locked in before the hammer reached full cock on three of the chambers.  If one thumbed back real hard, he could get the trigger to lock.  But casually cocking it tended to let the hammer fall.  Fortunately, we caught every fall with our thumbs, so it never buggered up the sear, but he was really disappointed that his revolver came timed like that.  I also noticed that the bolt was popping up rather late; it came up just barely on the edge of the leade, so the bolt leg was going to have to be shortened a tad.  Having to work on every single firearm I've ever received from Pietta or Uberti, I wasn't the least surprised, and I was pretty confident that I could get it running right for him. 

Also, having purchased a Cimarron 7th Cavalry myself a couple of years ago, I had it on hand to show him how nice his action could become with some judicious tweaking.  I only bought that 7th Cavalry version to have something to shoot instead of my Colts, thereby saving them from undue wear.  And it filled that role well, at the expense of my never getting to enjoy my Colts anymore.  So we traded.  He ended up with my 7th Cavalry that I'd already tuned, I got a reason to shoot my Colts again, but I also ended up with a project.

Since only three chambers were timed wrong, I couldn't just shorten the lower tooth on the hand; I had to work on the ratchet lugs to get all the chambers timed the same.  But then I noticed that none of the chambers were really parked at the center of the loading gate at half-cock; they were under-rotated a tad, allowing the case rims to catch on the recoil shield during ejection.  This is an issue I've encountered time and time again, and I even have the same trouble on my 3rd Gen Colt.  I'm beginning to think it may have something to do with the hand and ratchet redesign of the 3rd Gens, and Uberti follows this pattern to some degree.  Regardless, the first tooth of the hand was just too short, so I had to stretch the hand, which then put all the chambers out of time again, and I had to shorten the lower tooth to compensate.  Despite my stretching, it wasn't enough to entirely eliminate the ejection interference, but I'd stretched it as much as I dared.  It is very close, but I just couldn't get the hand long enough to rotate the cylinder quite far enough; some rims catch sometimes, and some don't.  A longer sear would bring the hammer back further, and that would work to rotate the cylinder farther at half-cock (necessitating shortening the lower tooth again), but the sear nose is still blued, indicating that it was just a factory-fresh, unworked sear; a new one would be exactly the same length. 

I've finished my other tuning operations for the time being, and the revolver is one slick-cocking piece.  To someone who didn't know better, the timing is perfect--the bolt pops up right when I want it to, and the hammer reaches full cock at the same time the bolt locks into place, producing one "click" instead of two.  But the half-cock indexing really bugs me, and I'm about tired of encountering timing issues with Italian revolvers.  I'm also tired of disassembling and reassembling this thing, especially the hand plunger.  I like how the plunger smooths cocking, but that tiny screw that holds the spring in place is a pain to line up correctly and doesn't look like it would hold up to unlimited removal and reassembly.  I'm considering just adding a slight bevel to the left side of the loading port at the recoil shield to keep the rims from actually catching here during ejection.  Anyone ever try this?  Am I just being anal about the half-cock timing?

[Coal Creek Griff]

Not an answer to your question, but is the hand plunger spring screw necessary?   I think that some advocate leaving it out and using the backstrap to hold the spring in place, assuming that there is enough tension.

CC Griff

[OD#3]

One would need a longer spring.  When just checking the timing as I was working on it, I sometimes just inserted the spring and held it in place with my finger while I slowly worked the action.  But you really need the full tension provided by the screw under normal operation.  That tension lets the hand work as a brake, preventing the cylinder from rotating faster than the hand is moving.  One disadvantage of the plunger system is that as the hand rises, the plunger is engaging it lower and lower, INCREASING the leverage of the hand against the plunger, and DECREASING hand tension against the ratchets.  The old leaf spring system maintained the same tension during the entire hand travel.  But it IS much easier to achieve a smooth action with the plunger system.  With the leaf spring system, I used to spend a very long time stoning the back of the hand slot, which is very hard to do well with Italian revolvers, as the back of their hand slots were pretty round--especially at the entrance at the bottom.  

One Pietta Thunderball I had was completely mismachined in the hand slot area, being entirely too shallow at the front to allow the hand to even engage the ratchets all the way.  That cylinder had no braking effect whatsoever from the hand, and throw-by occurred every time the hammer was cocked.  The bolt stop notches were, therefore, peened up from just the little factory and proofhouse cycling it had received, and I don't know how that one ever passed inspection.  That was my first Pietta since they'd reportedly modernized their factory, and it was a huge disappointment, given the high marks everyone on the forums was giving them at the time.  In retrospect, the hassle of sending it back would have been easier than the hours and hours I subsequently lavished on that action, but I predicted otherwise when I picked it up.  Ultimately, I ended up with very sore fingers from wielding needle files in tight areas to move that hand slot forward, and I even had to buy a new hand, and that was just to correct what was egregiously wrong; it still needed attention in other areas to smooth out the action.  But it was a nicely-tuned Pietta Thunderball when I was through, and I was proud of the work.  

I always wondered how that Thunderball would have shot.  It ended up on my buddy's gun show table when money got tight, and I'd decided that these anachronistic fantasy single actions were probably silly anyway.  I remember that the guy who bought it took it for granted that it would have a nice action, because of what he'd also read on the gun forums, but I was afraid he'd lose confidence in the sale and back out of the deal if I told him how much work it had required.  I just told him that it had been tuned-up.  He commented on how smooth the action was, and he took the perfect timing for granted.  I've often wondered if mine was the only Pietta Thunderball so afflicted and if any of his friends had been disappointed by purchasing their own after handling his.  I do seem to be a lemon-finder, however, and that seems to be borne out by my experiences with this Thunderer.  I guess that's what I get for going down the whole fantasy gun thing again.  

Just once, I'd like to buy an Italian SAA that was timed correctly out-of-the box.  I know they exist; people post about them all the time.  But I've never seen one.

[Coffinmaker]

HA     And OH BOY   

In answer to your OP > Yes and Yes

Re:  Your observation about the Pietta Cylinder .... Pietta Bolt/Cylinder fit most always needs help   .  Lots of help.  Personally, I don't even cycle a new Pietta until I pull the Cylinder and bolt and fit the bolt to the cylinder, adding a light bevel to the trailing edge.

If an SAA is correctly timed, the hand does not have to act as a break   .  The only time there will be a problem is with operator error in the cocking motion.  That can cause Throw-By even with a Dodge Ram spring on the hand.  Your Thunderer will probably run just fine without that retaining screw, but there is a ruger part that just might replace it and be a little longer/stiffer.   

Re:  Your desire for an Italian Replica ... or even a Colt with perfect timing.  NOT GONNA HAPPEN BUB.  "Close" is as good as it gets.

There are no "skilled artisans" at either Uberti or Pietta putting guns together.  There are "assemblers" who put guns together.  Some of them even know how the gun is suppose to work.  Some .... not so much.  Some guns are worse than others.  Lots worse.  Cheer up.  Just remember it could be LOTS WORSE    

[OD#3]

Coffinmaker, first off, I appreciate your assessment of the state of things regarding the current precision with which replicas and even Colts are assembled.  Perhaps I'm just too picky.  Perhaps those who report their new Uberti acquisitions' "smooth as glass" actions just don't know what a good SAA should feel like.  I suppose I'll have to just assume that's the reason why no Italian clone I've ever bought has ever been, in my estimate, ready to shoot from the factory, while other purchasers have been perfectly pleased with theirs. 

I'm still ironing out my Thunderer's action.  I noticed tonight that I'm still going to have to stone just a tad more on the second tooth of the hand; very slow cocking still manages to lock the cylinder just prior to full engagement of the full-cock sear.  I have to remind myself, though, that I have well less than $500 invested in this revolver, so I should take that into account in my criticisms.

I've waited a long time to reply to your reply, because of the respect I have for your experience and for your invaluable advice to me here over the years.  But I just can't accept your assertion that a properly-timed SAA action doesn't require healthy hand spring tension.  I hope I've misunderstood you somewhere.  Otherwise, you've just called into question something I've found to be vital over the years when tuning and timing my SAA's. That old Pietta Thunderball I tuned was an absolute disaster until I corrected the hand slot to allow full sprung engagement of the hand with the ratchets.  Please tell me that I've misread you somewhere!   

[kwilliams1876]

"There are no "skilled artisans" at either Uberti or Pietta putting guns together.  There are "assemblers" who put guns together.  Some of them even know how the gun is suppose to work.  Some .... not so much.  Some guns are worse than others.  Lots worse. "

I concur 100%, and this includes Rugers too. if one is a truly discriminating revolver guy, none of these will satisfy you unless heavily tuned and slicked up......yes its a shame for the money one pays out. i cannot remember the last "new gun" i acquired that was not immediately tore down to fix fit/feel/function. even then one Ruger had to go back for a new barrel
best kw

[Coffinmaker]

OD#3 ..... or ..... Hey Odie   

No.  You don't misunderstand what I am saying and have said about the necessity or lack thereof of a hefty hand spring.  Needing to correct the hand slot is not necessarily closely allied to the necessity for a "healthy" hand spring.  If the Hand slot does not allow the hand to properly advance the cylinder, matters not how heavy your hand spring.  Your going to get throw-By or failure to Carry Up.  At this point you may wish to consider you may well have a trigger that is simply too long?

I will, however digress just a bit.  I have retired from an awful lot of gunsmithing.  It was fun.  I just got OLD.  But.  If I sit around too much, I get skull numb BORED.  So I have been taking just enough Percussion Gun work to stay sane.  I have an aversion to working on Uberti's.  There is just too much wrong and Uberti has made no effort to improve their products, other than to make them worse for supposed legal reasons.  So.  I mostly set up Pietta Cap Guns for CAS use.  With the proviso they MUST be dead RELIABLE.  I personally shoot Gunfighter.  With a gun in each hand, no free hand to deal with problems.  DEAD RELIABLE.  Period.  After I set up the action, set the timing and do first assembly, I test.  I set the gun barrel down on my work pad and cycle the action .... HARD .... then ever so gently.  There is NO HAND SPRING in the gun.  I have already modified the hand for coil spring and plunger.  The hand is just wagging on the hammer and engaging the star of it's own weight.  The action MUST carry up and lock up.  When properly set up and timed, it does just that.
Again, there are multiple problems with Uberti I just do not want to deal with.  I could provide a laundry list of Uberti faults but that would sound too much like sniveling.  SO;

If the action is properly set up, timing is correct, and everything fits like it should, a nice firm but light hand is all that is necessary.  Uberti springs (and Pietta's) belong under a truck.  Way oversprung.  Oh, and the back side of the Uberti hand slot is "u" shaped is because a plain drill is used to start the hand slot.  That is where the spring runs.  That is why the Uberti spring narrows toward the contact area, the "u" shaped area needs polished a bit.  The contact area of the spring needs well polished.  The contact pressure needs reduced.  If your dealing with a Uberti that has Coil Spring and plunger, the "U" shaped area doesn't matter.  Nothing rubs there.  The spring and Plunger keep the hand against the flat surface at the front of the slot.  The major contact area is the outside side of the slot and needs dee-burr and polish.  The front flat of the slot needs dee-burr and polish and the side of the hand that rubs the slot needs dee-burr and polish.

There is a lot of work too setting up a Single Action.  It doesn't matter who makes the gun.  NONE of them are "right" out of the box.  None of them.  There are those who claim to know what was the intention of the original Colt and Remington engineers and designers.  They are, unfortunately, no more knowledgable about that than anyone else.  THEY WERN'T THERE.  Every good Gunplumber has their own ideas of what "should" be and how to get there.  Some of those ideas are based on Old Wives Tales passed down thru the century(s).  In any case, the knowledge and ability comes from a lot of expensive mistakes.  Knowledge is a thing you acquire about 15 minutes AFTER you really need it.  Just don't loose sight of one key factor.  Messing with Guns-R-Fun (expensive too).  If you don't learn a little bit every time you work on one, your doing something really wrong.

[OD#3]

Coffinmaker.  I have found, over the years, that many otherwise experienced shooters lack experience with SAA's.  So a surprising few actually know how to handle a traditional Single Action revolver.  At the risk of offending friends and acquaintances, whenever I've offered to let someone shoot one of my SAA's, I've found it wise to at least admonish him that if he starts to cock it, always bring it to full cock before lowering the hammer.  It didn't take to too long to discover that otherwise experienced handgunners will--all too often--abort the attempt half way through and try to lower the hammer some time during the cocking cycle, resulting in either locking the revolver up or inducing a turn line.  And it is with this experience in mind that I value the braking effect of a firm hand spring.  Whenever I've handled a single action revolver with a weak hand spring, I've found it possible to induce cylinder throw-by merely by starting off quickly and then hesitating somewhere during the cocking action.  The hand gets the cylinder spinning, and if the hammer stops or slows appreciably during the cocking cycle, the hand is likewise slowed or halted, making it possible for the cylinder to outrun a hand that has a light spring.  So when the bolt leg finally slips off the hammer cam, the cylinder has already advanced further than it should, and the bolt will sometimes pop up after the bolt notch has already passed the point of engagement.  So I value a firm hand spring for its ability to apply braking pressure to the cylinder ratchets, preventing the cylinder from free-spinning when cocked by a novice.  

I'm suspecting that you and I may just be setting up our revolvers differently, depending upon the intended user.  I think that you can get by with a light hand spring, because you understand fully what's going on internally whenever you cock a single action revolver; you make sure to maintain a steady cocking speed, and you expect your experienced clients to do the same.  I'm aiming for more of a fool-proof action that can't outrun the novice who may hesitate somewhere during the cocking cycle.  

I sincerely hope that I can one day handle one of your single actions, as I've no doubt that the action will be precise and the cocking effortless.  That would be a real treat, and I hope you stay engaged in this game long enough for me to retire so I'll actually have the time to travel and meet you and some of the other pards on this forum.

[Coffinmaker]

Hey Odie 

I full well understand your direction and reasoning.  Your not wrong in your context.  Not at all.  I do expect the folks for whom I set up a gun, to know what to do with it when they take it out of the box.  Right wrong or indifferent, when I am out among the unwashed masses at a CAS match or CAS function, or just practice (I did NOT admit to practice), I do not hand one of my match guns to a novice.  I actually drag around a "mule" they can look at, handle, or even shoot should they wish   

Fool Proofing an action against your average garden variety Novice??     I have found if the Novice doesn't incorrectly cycle the action, they will simply drop the gun in the gravel (oops, I'm so sorry)    Only way to Fool Proof an Action is to weld it up solid    : 

Uberti build guns essentially the same way Colt did.  During the production life of the SAA, once it hit the shelves, Colt did little if anything to improve the breed.  Second and third generation guns were essentially the same as the first generation.  Detail changes were all that was done.  So ..... Originally Uberti copied that sample example.  Never saw fit to improve it.  Uberti only went to Coil Spring and Plunger in response to competition from Pietta.  Pietta copied Ruger.  Uberti Bolts and Trigger Bolt springs are still very Old School.  Lots of improvement available there.  Main Springs are still ridiculous.  At least now, we can buy reduced Main Springs.

Time to hop off my Soap Box.

[OD#3]

I finished working on that Thunderer today--at least for now.  I hope to prove it out at the range tomorrow and see where it is printing.  Hopefully I won't have to turn the barrel to correct POA/POI.

If I had my 'druthers, I'd be able to TIG some metal on top of the first leg of the hand.  The bolt drops early enough, that when slowly cocking, the cylinder actually moves counterclockwise a smidge before the hand engages and starts rotating the cylinder clockwise.  A longer hand would fix this and park the chambers more centered in the loading gate, but I just didn't want to risk stretching the hand any more than I already had.  As it stands, at half cock, the chambers are parked just counterclockwise enough to cause most of the case rims to barely catch on the top edge of the loading gate port and interfere with ejection if I let the cylinder stop counterclockwise against the top tooth of the hand.  But since this isn't a collectible Colt, I eventually decided upon a bandaid fix and just filed and stoned a bevel on the top of the ejection port.  This gives the practical illusion of proper indexing at half-cock by allowing ejecting brass rims to cam against this bevel rather than actually stop against a sharp ledge.  The practical effect is that any rim that hits this bevel just cams the whole cylinder clockwise a tad during ejection, allowing what looks like smooth, unimpeded case ejection.  Surprisingly, this "solution" works very well, despite its pedestrian approach to a problem that should arguably have been addressed by lengthening the hand rather than attacking the frame. 

Fortunately, there is no one to complain about my butchery.  I mostly only work on my own guns, so I don't have to worry about clients' dismay at my shortcuts.  However, there are those rare "best friend freebee" jobs I've been commissioned to tackle.  But when I take on these occasional "best friend freebee" jobs, I make sure to do so with the understanding between the two of us that I'm no professional, and it is entirely possible that said "best friend" may have to order a replacement part from VTI before I'm through.  This was proven very recently when my best friend had to order a new bolt for the one I ruined tuning his Richard's Mason .38 Special. 

Incidentally, that project turned out well in the end.  You may remember my posting something about it when I first started working on it.  Ultimately, I took a chance and tried Dragoon 45's setscrew mod which involves tapping a 1/4 inch setscrew into the end of the arbor and adjusting its depth to take up the wedge travel lost as a consequence of lapping the barrel assembly tighter against the frame.   Now, Dragoon 45 doesn't promote this mod for this reason; he doesn't lap barrel assemblies to the frame.  Rather, he promotes this mod as a way to set and determine the extent of one's wedge engagement depth.  Regardless, this mod proved to very helpful in regaining wedge resistance lost due to my having lapped by friend's barrel assembly back some.  And despite my initial misgivings about its being able to stand up to firing, it turned in a great range performance and has held up well.  Unlike Dragoon 45, however, I retained Pettifogger's button, since I'd already used that to correct the Uberti "short arbor syndrome".  I just turned the shaft down on the button so that it was narrow enough to enter the hex head of the setscrew, which allowed me to avoid having to start all over from scratch in correcting the short arbor syndrome.
 

Ultimately I've found that I'm just experienced enough to improve the action well beyond what it started out as, but the final result is likely lacking compared to what it could if it were trusted to the care of those folks who've hung their CAS shingle for years in the CAS gunsmithing community. 

I filmed some of my work on this Thunderer, and I imported it into the computer tonight.  If I'm able to film its range trip tomorrow, I should be able to edit and upload everything soon.  Due to Youtube's increasingly hoplophobic attitude of late, however, I'm beginning to doubt even my rather tame gun channel's longevity in this medium (especially given today's "active shooter" scenario at Youtube's campus).  Yesterday, I applied to be a content creator at Full30.com.  I'm still awaiting their approval, but if that is approved, I'll probably be uploading future content to that site along with my uploads to Youtube, as I expect Youtube to eventually censor just about anything gun related.  I never bothered to monetize any of my atlanticproducts videos, so the initial Youtube demonitization trend wasn't anything I worried about.  But it is beginning to look like I may have to start uploading somewhere else soon regardless.

   

[kwilliams1876]

A longer hand can be easily made, especially since you have yours for a pattern. also if you are able you can ad metal to to lengthen it by using a very small tip and ad metal with your oxy/acet torch. micro welding takes skill but is easy to do......just a dab!

[OD#3]

If only I was so equipped and so skilled.  Welding was always something I wanted to learn.  But other than the occasional wire welding forays, I've never tried my hand at anything else.  I've an acquaintance that does very good TIG welding and another that is a watch-maker and has a laser-welder.  But I can prevail upon neither at a moment's notice (the TIG welder has had two Webley hands of mine for weeks now and hasn't done anything with them yet).  Never learning to weld has become one of those great regrets in my life.

[Bibbyman]

Long but interesting conversation.

Last year I bought a Cimmeron Pietta Eleminator 8 45 Colt at a local gunshop.   It was a trade-in and suppose to be  new in the box.   The Eliminator was suppose to be dealer tuned to be competition ready right out of the box.   The more I looked at it and shot it, more evidence I found that it had been tuned by an imbecile.   I've went through and fixed a number of problems.

It's apart right now as I'm trying to correct the windage.  It was shooting 4" to the left at 10 steps.  You could see the barrel wasn't indexed correctly.  Easier being octagon.  I turned the barrel a bit and now it's shooting about an inch to the left. I can still see the barrel is still not aligned.  So while I have the equipment out. I'm going to bump it again.

Also,  the lower step on the hand is way too low - falling far short of completing the rotation before full cock.  I stretched the hand some and that made a big difference but still a little short so I just stretched it a bit more.