Cylinder bushing on '58's

scrubby2009 · October 07, 2018, 11:26:24 AM

Just wondering if anyone else has cured inconsistent ignition problems from excessive cylinder play with bushings. Adding a .012 brass bushing has allowed me to continue using the original nipples. They are rusted tight and I'm reluctant to drill them out just yet. After 155 years of service, I'll adapt to the "wearing-in" that this old hunk of iron has accumulated.

Professor Marvel · October 09, 2018, 05:53:50 PM

Greetings My Dear Scrubby -

as you probably know, most folks who add a bushing do so for anti-pin-fouling, by milling (or filing) a clearance on the frame
and milling (or drilling) a clearance hole for the bushing in the cylinder.

If one experiences worn-out nipples (cones) the most efficacious solution is of course to replace them.
But if this is an original, and they are frozen in, I can understand your desire.

However, adding a bushing or washer at the barrel end to address "headspace" will, of course open up the barrel-cylinder gap
which may also be unfortunate....

You may want to consider a replacement cylinder. If this is an original, there are some modern Italian cylinders that may fit, if you can post photos and dimensions, we might be able to help...

yhs
prof marvel

scrubby2009 · October 10, 2018, 12:00:03 AM

Professor, many thanks for your valued input. You are correct about the gap allow some smoke/flash/powder particulate. My longterm goal is to severely "weather" a 45LC conversion cylinder to match the old frame appearance-wise. But Mark Hubbs has got me rolling these paper cartridges... having wa-ay to much fun to stop right now! It is an absolute thrill to hammer fullpower loads through this old thing in it's as-found condition. I will grab my micrometer and measure everything out, photograph it as well, on the next disassembly/cleaning session.

Professor Marvel · October 10, 2018, 12:28:04 AM

Quote from: scrubby2009 on October 10, 2018, 12:00:03 AM
Professor, many thanks for your valued input. You are correct about the gap allow some smoke/flash/powder particulate. My longterm goal is to severely "weather" a 45LC conversion cylinder to match the old frame appearance-wise. But Mark Hubbs has got me rolling these paper cartridges... having wa-ay to much fun to stop right now! It is an absolute thrill to hammer fullpower loads through this old thing in it's as-found condition. I will grab my micrometer and measure everything out, photograph it as well, on the next disassembly/cleaning session.

Oh yes I do love the paper cartridges!
here in CAS City one fellow is is making paper cartidge boxes copying the that hold 6 ( I'll find the link in a bit)
and over on the remington forum (did I see you there too?) one fellow is building a shoulder bag that holds ~50 !

one of the easiest ways to age a cylinder is to strip the blue with vinegar, then rust brown/blue (or even cold blue) it and knock off some with a 3M plastic (I like green) scrubbing pad.

I do believe Wolfgang (a member here) managed to fit a new italian cylinder to his original remmy with very little difficulty.

here is a part of a list of cylinder dimensions I compiled :

Date code:
Pietta CI == 2013
Uberti CN == 2015
ASM: ??
ASP/Euroarms 1983
Pietta    Uberti    ASM     Euroarms(ASP)
Cylinder length 2.017"   2.000" 2.014    2.004"
Cylinder diameter 1.593"   1.601"   1.636    1.602"
Cylinder pin hole 0.276"   0.276"   0.275     0.275
chamber diameter 0.446"   0.449"   0.445
Cylinder bolt width 0.156"   0.160"   0.135

Pietta conversion cylinder length 2.014"
Uberti conversion cylinder length 2.000"
Pietta conversion cylinder diameter 1.624"
Uberti conversion cylinder diameter 1.624"

yhs
prof marvel

scrubby2009 · October 18, 2018, 09:22:07 AM

Quote from: Professor Marvel on October 10, 2018, 12:28:04 AM
Oh yes I do love the paper cartridges!
here in CAS City one fellow is is making paper cartidge boxes copying the that hold 6 ( I'll find the link in a bit)
and over on the remington forum (did I see you there too?) one fellow is building a shoulder bag that holds maybe a hundred!

one of the easiest ways to age a cylinder is to strip the blue with vinegar, then rust brown/blue (or even cold blue) it and knock off some with a 3M plastic (I like green) scrubbing pad.

I do believe Wolfgang (a member here) managed to fit a new italian cylinder to his original remmy with very little difficulty.

here is a part of a list of cylinder dimensions I compiled :

Date code:
Pietta CI == 2013
Uberti CN == 2015
ASM: ??
ASP/Euroarms 1983
Pietta    Uberti     ASM     Euroarms(ASP)
Cylinder length 2.017"   2.000" 2.014    2.004"
Cylinder diameter 1.593"   1.601"   1.636    1.602"
Cylinder pin hole 0.276"   0.276"   0.275     0.275
chamber diameter 0.446"   0.449"   0.445
Cylinder bolt width 0.156"   0.160"   0.135

Pietta conversion cylinder length 2.014"
Uberti conversion cylinder length 2.000"
Pietta conversion cylinder diameter 1.624"
Uberti conversion cylinder diameter 1.624"

yhs
prof marvel

Thanks for the details and information. My Remington measurements are as follows.
Cylinder length 1.997"
Inside frame length 2.034"
current shim 0.029"
(theoretical)endplay 0.006"
pin diameter 0.266"
bolt notch 0.148"
cylinder diameter 1.624"
It seems that the Pietta-sized conversion would work for length, probably need the Pietta pin and ream my frame out a bit. The original pin is gone and has been oversize-reamed already. My concern for timing is in the the bolt notch diameter, possibly need to set the original aside and fit a reproduction one, sized to lock-up tightly? It will be interesting. As an aside, any preferences regarding conversion cylinders? I like the Pale Rider appearance, is it "real world useful" however? Again, thanks for your detailed answers and generous sharing of information and experience.
Also, yes I am sharing and loitering on the Remington site, more activity there, I enjoy the banter and interaction. And as an aside, I loaded up 40 of the J and D conicals with Goex FFFg last night, interested to get out in the woods this next week and see how real blackpowder sounds/feels/smells!

Professor Marvel · October 18, 2018, 06:59:53 PM

Quote from: scrubby2009 on October 18, 2018, 09:22:07 AM
Thanks for the details and information. My Remington measurements are as follows.
Cylinder length 1.997"
Inside frame length 2.034"
current shim 0.029"
(theoretical)endplay 0.006"
pin diameter 0.266"
bolt notch 0.148"
cylinder diameter 1.624"
It seems that the Pietta-sized conversion would work for length, probably need the Pietta pin and ream my frame out a bit. The original pin is gone and has been oversize-reamed already. My concern for timing is in the the bolt notch diameter, possibly need to set the original aside and fit a reproduction one, sized to lock-up tightly? It will be interesting. As an aside, any preferences regarding conversion cylinders? I like the Pale Rider appearance, is it "real world useful" however? Again, thanks for your detailed answers and generous sharing of information and experience.
Also, yes I am sharing and loitering on the Remington site, more activity there, I enjoy the banter and interaction. And as an aside, I loaded up 40 of the J and D conicals with Goex FFFg last night, interested to get out in the woods this next week and see how real blackpowder sounds/feels/smells!

I myself would save the original parts then start with a cheap Pietta cylinder, and modify a replacement cylinder bolt
(and the existing bolt window if necessary) to fit. If one had to tighten up the barrel/cylinder gap one "ought to" be able to readily remove the barrel and turn the barrel shoulder down a hair. As you said, The Pietta pin should be easy/peasy.

Once you managed that it should be simplicity itself to swap in/out a Pietta conversion cylinder.

BTW, you might want to look up "Racing" - he is a fellow over in sweden who has been restoring/refurbishing/modifying original 1858's which can be obtained completely license free over there , and he is crazy good with a lathe, bridgeport, and TIG.

my preference for conversion cylinders....

well my first set of 2 were two 5 shot Kirsts, cylinders only, and I created my own "thick plate" backplates. I like these a lot
because they drop in/out easily, and emulate the early "thich-plate conversions) that allow use of percussion cylinder, and still
allow quick reloads "on the gun" as well. I am also playing with a ported thick plate that looks somewhat like a frankenstein colt thuer conversion

my second set were two 5 shot Kirst gated conversions, which I making into a permanent "period conversion".

then I started acquiring Taylor style "plate conversions". They are fine , shoot well, existed in the time period, but are not as
asthetically pleasing to me...

The Pale Rider looks like a non-ported thickplate conversion, it looks good, the only downside is having to take the whole shebang out
plate and all to reload.

as always, just my thoughts and opinions, ymmv,
hope this helps

prof marvel