The crappy Chappy saga continues...

[Jbar4Ranch]

I've had a Chaparral 1876 .45-75 since '07, and it's definitely earned the nickname "Crappy Chappy". Unbelievably poor QC and ridiculous accuracy problems led me to send it back to Nick Ecker TWICE. The third one was within my capabilities to make it work, but the accuracy problems persisted. I tried bullet weights from 265 - 405 grains, .458", .459", and a few "as cast" at .460"+. I've tried a dozen different smokeless powders, APP, Triple 7, Pinnacle, Black MZ, Goex, Elephant, KIK, and Swiss in different granulations. I've tried gas checked and jacketed bullets. The bore looks good, the crown looks good, there are no tight or loose spots - it just will not shoot well.

But, it's better than the first one. The first one shot 2' groups at 25 yards with the bullets hitting completely sideways. Fifty yard patterns were in the vicinity of SIX FEET.

I got it out today and decided to run through a bunch of powders, bullets, and loads again, in the hope that something might work. The worst 5 shot groups were around 16" at 100 yards, and the best around 7". Unfortunately, the "small" seven inch groups weren't repeatable, and opened up to 10-12" the second time around. I got thinking, "I've gone ridiculous on the light end with 265 grainers... what the hell..."
I found a handful of cast 500 grain RN gas check bullets in a box, sized them and loaded them over Black MZ with the bullet seated deeply enough to feed through the action and crimped considerably forward of the upper band. The first five printed a group of 4 1/4". Yeah, here we go again - just got lucky. I loaded up 5 more, stepped outside, and they went into 4 3/8". Hmmm... back to the bench and prepared 5 more, stepped out to the bench, and put them into 4 1/4"... all 15 are under 4 1/2".  Acceptable, barely, and definitely not a paper punchin' Saturday afternoon range plinker, but rather a deer killin', elk slayin', buffalo slaughterin', bear flattenin' elephant killer.  

[greyhawk]

I've had a Chaparral 1876 .45-75 since '07, and it's definitely earned the nickname "Crappy Chappy". Unbelievably poor QC and ridiculous accuracy problems led me to send it back to Nick Ecker TWICE. The third one was within my capabilities to make it work, but the accuracy problems persisted. I tried bullet weights from 265 - 405 grains, .458", .459", and a few "as cast" at .460"+. I've tried a dozen different smokeless powders, APP, Triple 7, Pinnacle, Black MZ, Goex, Elephant, KIK, and Swiss in different granulations. I've tried gas checked and jacketed bullets. The bore looks good, the crown looks good, there are no tight or loose spots - it just will not shoot well.

But, it's better than the first one. The first one shot 2' groups at 25 yards with the bullets hitting completely sideways. Fifty yard patterns were in the vicinity of SIX FEET.

I got it out today and decided to run through a bunch of powders, bullets, and loads again, in the hope that something might work. The worst 5 shot groups were around 16" at 100 yards, and the best around 7". Unfortunately, the "small" seven inch groups weren't repeatable, and opened up to 10-12" the second time around. I got thinking, "I've gone ridiculous on the light end with 265 grainers... what the hell..."
I found a handful of cast 500 grain RN gas check bullets in a box, sized them and loaded them over Black MZ with the bullet seated deeply enough to feed through the action and crimped considerably forward of the upper band. The first five printed a group of 4 1/4". Yeah, here we go again - just got lucky. I loaded up 5 more, stepped outside, and they went into 4 3/8". Hmmm... back to the bench and prepared 5 more, stepped out to the bench, and put them into 4 1/4"... all 15 are under 4 1/2".  Acceptable, barely, and definitely not a paper punchin' Saturday afternoon range plinker, but rather a deer killin', elk slayin', buffalo slaughterin', bear flattenin' elephant killer.  

You will have been over this many times  but here goes again
1) what numbers do you get when you slug the bore and measure it ?
2) have you checked headspace is ok?
3) shooting hard cast boolits or soft?
4) is it splattering shots all over or is there some kind of pattern to it ?
5) is it "walking" up the target or stringing sideways
6) how does the magazine fit up - to the barrel - is it tight in the forward dovetail - to the forend wood ----looking for something here that applies inconsistent tension to the barrel and / or its fit to the action
Had a friend that rebarrelled an old 92 - that thing shot lousy at the start and off about a foot at 50 yards after they laser bore sighted the sights setting it up - it wouldnt come across to centre either when they moved the sights some - in the end he pulled the barrel again and the old action was stretched or out of shape at he front end and the round barrel he fitted - he didnt leave enough shoulder to bed square against the action - - ended up turning a collar a little bigger and fitting it on the barrel shank - got that all bedded square and its a good shooter

[Slamfire]

 These are the kind of " HORROR " story's that just makes me feel lucky . Oh yea,, had a few problems but accuracy !!! has never been a problem ,,( 40/60 x 26" ) ,sure hope you find the right combo .

 coffee's ready ,,, Hootmix.        PM sent.

[Jbar4Ranch]

You will have been over this many times  but here goes again
1) what numbers do you get when you slug the bore and measure it ?
2) have you checked headspace is ok?
3) shooting hard cast boolits or soft?
4) is it splattering shots all over or is there some kind of pattern to it ?
5) is it "walking" up the target or stringing sideways
6) how does the magazine fit up - to the barrel - is it tight in the forward dovetail - to the forend wood ----looking for something here that applies inconsistent tension to the barrel and / or its fit to the action
Had a friend that rebarrelled an old 92 - that thing shot lousy at the start and off about a foot at 50 yards after they laser bore sighted the sights setting it up - it wouldnt come across to centre either when they moved the sights some - in the end he pulled the barrel again and the old action was stretched or out of shape at he front end and the round barrel he fitted - he didnt leave enough shoulder to bed square against the action - - ended up turning a collar a little bigger and fitting it on the barrel shank - got that all bedded square and its a good shooter

Bore slugs .4580" - .4583", depending on which opposing set is measured. Lands are ~.4525", so the rifling is just shy of .003". A little shallow, perhaps, but it should be sufficient. IIRC, the twist rate should be 1:20.
Headspace is effectively -0-, as the cases are all fire-formed to the chamber and neck sized only.
I've tried several known alloys from dead soft lead to some that my LBT tester puts at around 25 BHN... might as well be shooting copper solids!
No discernible pattern to the grouping.
No discernible vertical or horizontal stringing.
Magazine tube is not binding in it's mount or in the fore end cap. But that brought to mind another odd thing about "fit & finish". After having this one for awhile, I noticed one day something looked a bit odd about the magazine tube cap. There's a slot in the bottom of the barrel where a tab on the cap rotates into and then the retaining screw inserted, but someone assembled this one with the tab just resting on the end of the barrel, so the mag tube was actually about 1/4" from being fully inserted into the action.

[kwilliams1876]

my chappy consumed mega gunsmithing hours to get it just to function properly, smoothly and eject, re-crown barrel, fix the wobbly rear sight too. in the end i did like the handling and feel of it.  but..........it just never would shoot a decent repeatable group. the rifling was so shallow that they where just spiral scratches. tried many loads and many bullets to no avail. so packed it up and sold the thing. now just shoot my original 45-75 and an uberti 50-95.
good luck
kw

[greyhawk]

Bore slugs .4580" - .4583", depending on which opposing set is measured. Lands are ~.4525", so the rifling is just shy of .003". A little shallow, perhaps, but it should be sufficient. IIRC, the twist rate should be 1:20.
Headspace is effectively -0-, as the cases are all fire-formed to the chamber and neck sized only.
I've tried several known alloys from dead soft lead to some that my LBT tester puts at around 25 BHN... might as well be shooting copper solids!
No discernible pattern to the grouping.
No discernible vertical or horizontal stringing.
Magazine tube is not binding in it's mount or in the fore end cap. But that brought to mind another odd thing about "fit & finish". After having this one for awhile, I noticed one day something looked a bit odd about the magazine tube cap. There's a slot in the bottom of the barrel where a tab on the cap rotates into and then the retaining screw inserted, but someone assembled this one with the tab just resting on the end of the barrel, so the mag tube was actually about 1/4" from being fully inserted into the action.

[greyhawk]

Bore slugs .4580" - .4583", depending on which opposing set is measured. Lands are ~.4525", so the rifling is just shy of .003". A little shallow, perhaps, but it should be sufficient. IIRC, the twist rate should be 1:20.
Headspace is effectively -0-, as the cases are all fire-formed to the chamber and neck sized only.
I've tried several known alloys from dead soft lead to some that my LBT tester puts at around 25 BHN... might as well be shooting copper solids!
No discernible pattern to the grouping.
No discernible vertical or horizontal stringing.
Magazine tube is not binding in it's mount or in the fore end cap. But that brought to mind another odd thing about "fit & finish". After having this one for awhile, I noticed one day something looked a bit odd about the magazine tube cap. There's a slot in the bottom of the barrel where a tab on the cap rotates into and then the retaining screw inserted, but someone assembled this one with the tab just resting on the end of the barrel, so the mag tube was actually about 1/4" from being fully inserted into the action.

Well that just about sorted out my list ! frustrating huh! Did you fix that magazine misfit?   As a desperation measure you might try pulling the magazine off it and shoot a group single loading.
If the bore looks good (it measures ok) - headspace is ok - and a boolit is fit to it - crown is ok - the thing should at least shoot half reasonable - sometimes it is just litle stupid things tho

I have a winchester model 70 (bought new 1973) 22/250 - from new it shot good groups but everytime I took it out that group would be someplace different than last time - six to twelve inches off at 100yards - three shots you would cover with a nickel but you might clean miss a goat - we went to work to free float the barrel and found it had a high spot off centre on the forend tip and a lot uf upwards pressure was built into the stock design - so everytime the wood moved the tiniest bit it shifted where it hit - we sanded out a full eighth inch to get a few thou clearance under the barrel  - fixed the problem - until I pulled it down for some reason and when I put it back together that thing would not shoot a group for love nor money - talking eight inch spread at 100yards - really pi$$ed me off !! - luckily I ran across someone that knew - he said simple - just back off the middle action screw till its just over finger tight - WTF ! - if you tighten the middle screw down on that action it will not shoot - lt puts tension in the action someplace and stuffs everything. The point here Anything that puts eneven tension on an action or barrel has the potential to mess up accuracy  - other than that - you got me stumped.

[Slamfire]

Hey J bar ,, I keep com'n back to this post and rereading it ,,I think greyhawk may be on to something ,,"IF " you are shooting from a rest ,, try resting the rifle on the magazine , just in front of the forearm ( 1"- 1 1/2 " ) . I read a article by a 6 time long distant shooter ,, said this was how he found his problem . If this method works out then you know the forarm is part of the problem .
To fix the mag. tube you will have to remove the forearm & plug ,, pull spring & the pin holding the mag. tube to the barrel ,, bump the mag . tube back ( down ) into the receiver ( mine was out 1/16 " the rims of  the rounds kept hanging up in the receiver ) . I didn't want to weld on the barrel so I tig welded the pin hole on the mag. tube and drilled a new one ( yep ! sucks for the buck's ) " ADDED a piece to the outside end of the plug ,, " ta-da " fit .

Now ! with all the above stuff off your rifle ,,,,,,, shoot it single shot ,, this will be in line with what greyhawk said about his Model 70 ,, ( of course I do most of my gun cobbling between 12:& 2: AM when I'm not busy ) might be worth " a shot "( sorry ) .

  coffee's ready ,,Hootmix.

[kwilliams1876]

as you said.......rifling just shy of .003 probably will never shoot lead bullets. the chappy rifling is a poor excuse of machining.
mine just wore me out trying to get it to shoot with the same issues. my uberti and the original i have shoot fine.
best kw