Question for those that use a scabbard & lever rifle on a real horse?

[Black River Smith]

I am making my first and only rifle scabbard in the Meanea pattern.  I will never really use this on a horse but ....

I know the following questions are very subjective to peoples opinions and preferences.  But I used all my historical reference books to try and decide 'what seems appropriate back then' but to no great satisfaction.  I read stohlman leather book on 'cases and scabbard' but his suggestion went totally contrary to what the history book photos showed and western movies show.  He states rifle on right with butt back end and sights up.  Most westerns have the scabbard on the right side butt forward sights down.  Most books show it on left side with butt forward.

Without getting to any arguments please let me know your approach.

1. Scabord on right or left side?
2. Butt of rifle facing front or back end of horse?
3. Rifle inserted with sights up or down in scabbard?

These question center around the placing of the strap retaining ribbets in the correct orientation so they do not injure the the horse if the scabbard would used.

I know any comment is useful so share your reasons and preferences for your orientation.

Thanks,
BRS

[LongWalker]

Just a thought.  The rule I learned was if you are on level ground, orientation doesn't really matter.  If you are in hilly or mountainous country, butt forward and up is less-likely to fall out of the scabbard.  On the other hand, butt back and sights up is easier to draw from the ground. 

With an iron-sighted rifle, I always had mine rigged butt forward, sights down on the right side.  Most times, it stayed there: if I needed a gun, the pistol was more convenient so eventually I stopped carrying a rifle. 

[Major 2]

" ...Most books show it on left side with butt forward."

A horse is approached & mounted from the left....  hence the left side placement and butt forward so you don't fowl your leg as it swings over the cantle & flank.

One of the worst horse wrecks I saw, when a fellow was mounting, was when he had his 30/30 Right side, butt to the rear....
AS he swung over,  his leg fowled between the rifle butt and the horse rear quarter flank.
His leg in the V that was created , jammed in he was hung up, the horse began to buck ...then more violently ....
The guy was thrown head first over the horse's head...landing on his knees & right arm ... broke a bone in his arm at the wrist and his collar bone plus wrecked his knee cap.... 

Right rear,  Butt rear...bad Ju Ju 

[Marshal Will Wingam]

After reading Major2's account, I'd be putting it on butt forward and on the left for convenience from the ground. Wouldn't want to have to put it in the scabbard on one side then go around to the other side of the horse to mount.

[Trailrider]

When I hunted on horseback (always dismounted to shoot!!!), I packed my scope-sighted, bolt-action rifle, butt rear, sights up on the right side. I made my own scabbards, and had a flap that covered the rear end of the scope, plus a retainer that fit over the bolt. The scabbard was angled so that the buttstock stayed below the level of the cantle, so as not to interfere with my right leg as I mounted or dismounted. The problem with having the stock butt forward on either side of the horse was catching brush when riding through timber.  In addition, with the "southeast" carry, I could draw the rifle before dismounting or while on the ground.

I remember seeing one of The Magnificent Seven mounting and catching his leg between the rifle scabbard and the horse. He was able to disengage and finish mounting.  However, part of these problems had to do with the buttstock sticking up above the level of the top of the horse.  Never had a problem with the way I attached mine.

[Ranch 13]

 I prefer to carry a rifle on the on side, butt forward. That way you can keep track of the rifle easier. The exception if a bolt rifle, then carry it butt forward on the off side , so the bolt doesn't rub against the horse.

[Coal Creek Griff]

I fully admit to my ignorance here,  but I heard somewhere that if you're planning to do any roping, a butt-forward placement would interfere. For that reason (so the story went), the rear placement was chosen by working cowboys. On the other hand, if I was a working cowboy, planning on roping, I'd probably not carry a rifle. Again, I don't ride or rope, so it's all speculation.  Set me straight.

CC Griff

[Ranch 13]

Butt forward would interfere if you hung the scabbard at such an angle that it sticks up above the pommels.

[LongWalker]

If you're roping, get the rifle off the horse.  You don't want any extraneous "stuff" hanging off your rigging when there's a cow on the other end of the rope.  That's just a trainwreck waiting to happen.

[greyhawk]

If you're roping, get the rifle off the horse.  You don't want any extraneous "stuff" hanging off your rigging when there's a cow on the other end of the rope.  That's just a trainwreck waiting to happen.

I carried a 92 horseback for three years when I was young - our Aussie saddles are different - I could not put up with the bulge of the scabbard and rifle under the flap so I ended up with it vertical hanging from the pommel on the off side and tied back to the girth and then around with the breastplate to the nearside girth - but any serious mustering in the rough and the rifle stayed home. We dont rope - that never took hold except for the bronco system in the northern stock camps. All our cattle work is done in decent yards - its way more labour efficient - branding cradles and crushes - decent drafting yards. Where your guys win is the social side of it - I have ridden a couple of times wirh friends in Nebraska to work cattle - theres a branding on at Jacks place saturday - half the district turns up with trailers horses and ropes -- Bobs missus brings cold beers and a barbeque and the job is done by 11 oclock - so they all can stand round and tell lies er stories for a few hours - it keeps the cowboy story alive - good stuff.     

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

If you're roping, get the rifle off the horse.  You don't want any extraneous "stuff" hanging off your rigging when there's a cow on the other end of the rope.  That's just a trainwreck waiting to happen.

All the images I have seen of cowboys with a rifle in a scabbard were of the trail bosses. The actual working cowboys left theirs in the bedding wagon, (if they brought a rifle at all.)

[greyhawk]

All the images I have seen of cowboys with a rifle in a scabbard were of the trail bosses. The actual working cowboys left theirs in the bedding wagon, (if they brought a rifle at all.)

good chance those boys couldnt aford a rifle anyway.
seen plenty of pictures of those trainwreck setups with the rifle butt forward on the offside and the coiled rope slung around the rifle butt --- hollywood maybe?? 

[Black River Smith]

I thought I would just add some photos of my progress to this older posting rather than starting a new posting.

Well I decided to go with a left; front facing; sight up; positioning on a real horse.

I do not know if the photos will show enough detail but these are the best HDR photos my phone takes.  Also, there is a two tone coloring on the leather.  I have had the leather for several year just for making 'a scabbard'.  Well when I finally took it out for that purpose I noticed the oil staining of the leather.  It must have had something resting on it, which caused a transfer.  The good thing is that I did not plan on dyeing/coloring the final produce, just oiling it.  Hope it all blends out in the end.


The first pictures are of the stamp pattern I chose.

The second set of photos are just of the glued scabbard.

Well since taking these photos and this posting I have finished the hand stitching.  Needed to do it twice because first time I got half way through and realized the threading was going to be a little too short.  Second I allowed extra.

[Black River Smith]

The last photo that would not fit within the previous posting.

[Skeeter Lewis]

I remember that Teddy Blue Abbott in his autobiography 'We Pointed Them North' said that a rifle scabbard could gall a horse after a few hours and cowboys generally just had the sixgun.

[Black River Smith]

Skeeter,

Sir, I would like to thank you for your posting that finally put me on this track to make a scabbard.  Your photo and length measurement allowed me to grid scale the pattern that I used for this project.  I started sometime after the first of the year and just today finished the strap retainer and full burnishing.  Now I need to oil it all up.

The finished product does allow the insertion of my 1873 and 1866.  I tried the 1876 but not enough clearance past the bottom strap retainer.  I did not attach it too high I checked against photos and used Will Ghormley pattern.  Oh well, maybe after oiling the leather it will slip in.

I really do like the overall shape and size.  Again thank you for your posting from back in 2015 and your responses to my questions.

[Skeeter Lewis]

Glad to help. Looking forward to the completed job.