Black powder loads for 30-40 Krag

[Crow Choker]

Hi To All---Last fall (2017) I bought a nice shape Springfield Krag 30-40 rifle, circa 1902. I've reloaded some ammo using smokeless powder and 180 grain jacketed soft points and plan to do the same with some cast bullets using a 30 caliber Lyman 200 grain mold I originally had bought for several other 30/06 military bolt action rifles. I'm thinking of and would enjoy reloading some 30-40 fodder using black powder and the 200 grain cast bullets from my Lyman mold. Have searched the web some for any information on any possible loads for doing so, not real productive so far. Have any of ya here in CAS City ever loaded ammo for the 30-40 Krag using black powder. The Lyman mold I have has decent grease grooves for lube. Any info much appreciated. I should post this over at the Barracks, have to do later. I'm being kicked off of here by the Mrs. 

[hellgate]

One thing I remember from my activity in the Cast Bullet Association days was in order to get any decent accuracy (besides a half dozen other anal procedures) was to get ALL copper fouling out of the bore or the lead will grab onto it and ruin accuracy. I'm not sure if that applies to BP shooting as the BP fouling may conceal the copper.

[Crow Choker]

Copper fouling!!! I hear you there! I've had military rifles, various calibers/countires, several WW1 and most out of WW2, that had enough copper in the bores to start up a mining operation. Took a lot of solvent and elbow grease to get it out-at least as far as I could see. This Krag wasn't all that bad. Previous owner was picky about care and it did have a lot of TLC. Maybe the Krag being it was the first US Military round designed to shoot using smokeless powder (that was accepted), it may not shoot black very well. I don't know why it shouldn't, unless the shallower rifling fowls to easily. My Krag does have a good bore with sharp well distinguished rifling, but who knows, it may fowl to bad to provide good accuracy. I've got a good mold to use already with three diameters of sizer dies for my Lyman sizer, and a set of dies. If it doesn't work, I'm not out of any investment other than a fowled bore and dirty brass, maybe the time reloading-but I like to reload. Be interesting endeavor.

[hellgate]

When publishing the results of Cast Bullet Assn (CBA) matches they required the winners to publish their loads. So, successful molds, powders, primers, sizing, barrels/rifles was all stated. That was very informative. A couple other tricks were to mark a notch in the mold so you could align the bullet as it was sized/gas checked, lubed & loaded. Also the cases were aligned when sized & loaded. The powder (smokeless) was aligned either against the primer or flat in the case by tilting the rifle or not. Everything had to be consistent to get decent groups. Weighing & sorting the bullets was only for starters.

[Crow Choker]

hellgate: I've been on the CBA web some as a lurker, good reading info, the cast bullet web site that has tons of info on cast bullet loads is one of my favorites. I did post my quest for 30-40 Krag blk powder load info on the 'Barracks' (this forum) and received some replies. The one that got me leery on maybe continuing my thought of 30-40 Krag black powder reloading was one that questioned the need for proper compaction in the Krags bottleneck case, not getting it, which could lead to problems. Aware of the need for compaction, as I've reloaded a lot of straight wall revolver rounds, but hadn't thought of that aspect of getting the proper compaction. Also another one mentioned some who have done so, but accuracy went 'south' in a hurry due to fowled barrel, needing the barrel to be wiped every 3-4 shots or so like long range big bore competitors. Not something that interests me. Might have to shelve the idea unless some good, safe documented reloading procedure comes along, but still not interested if I spend as much time running a cleaning rod down the bore as I do shooting. Thanks for the info. CC

[Ranch 13]

If I were to load the 30-40 with blackpowder, I'ld fill the case with either Olde Eysnford or Swiss 1 1/2 f. The with dry lubed felt wad from Muzzleloaders Original for 31 caliber, compress the powder with a Lyman M die or similar to the point that when the bullet is fully seated it makes hard contact with the wad. No more crimp than just enough to take the flare out of the case mouth.
If your bullets are lubed with a proven bp lube such as Bullshops Nasa, SPG or DGL, you should be able to get 10 rounds or so before you foul out.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

The .303 British is a contemporary of the .30-40 US. But, with a long taper and just a minimal shoulder. It was first loaded with heavily compressed blackpowder until cordite was perfected. The factory loading process was to insert the powder, (The Cordite was fed in bunched strands through a safety wall and cut precisely when inserting it into the individual case.) then the case was necked before seating the bullet. An entirely different concept.

What I recall from Mike Venturino's writing is that bottlenecked cases were extremely difficult to get shooting accurately.

Have fun guys!

[Ranch 13]

Bottle neck cases aren't as hard to get to shooting well with blackpowder as some would have you believe. Big secret is to keep the base of the bullet at or just slightly above the bottom of the neck..

[Crow Choker]

Interesting info. Some of the 'troops' over in the 'Barracks' posted some interesting info also. I can see possibly by using the same principle as when loading up straight wall revolver/rifle ammo with black, ie fill to top or near to top of the casing, then seating bullet getting needed compaction. The 'proverbial cat' can be skinned more than one way! Being that the 30 cal, 200 grain cast bullet I'd be using has a long shank and the 30-40 Krag has a long neck, getting needed compaction may not work just using the bullet for doing the compaction. Have to take the case neck length vs needed bullet seating depth, while considering the length of the bullet shank with regards to needed compaction into consideration.  Sounds like some mathematical equation. Have to ponder the issue. As Ranch and Sir Charles pointed out, good accuracy due to fast and excessive fowling may not lead to 'a harmonious outcome'! If needed compaction can be attained, be interesting to load up a couple dozen rds just to see what happens.
CC

[Ranch 13]

 You can't use a bullet to compress the powder with much success, it usually bulges the bullet nose at the ogive and that gives no end to accuracy and leading problems. If you don't want to use an M die for compression, you can use a hardwood dowel cut to the same length as the bullet, seat the dowel plug then pull it and replace with the bullet.
Using a high quality powder such as Olde Eynsford or Swiss, the fouling will be much easier to deal with. Using a thin lubed felt wad under the bullet also helps keep the fouling from being a huge problem.
Don't use a powder smaller than 2f, and 2f may not be a good choice, as the quicker burning of 2 and 3 f produce more heat than the slower powders, that makes the fouling dry out quicker. 1/1/2 and  1 f are better choices for bottle neck cartridges.
The big problem you may run into that bullet may not stabilize well at the velocity black will give.

[Crow Choker]

Thanks Ranch. Lyman 'M' Die--isn't that their die used for belling a case mouth? Your thoughts are noted. In my area, anything courser than 2F is pretty rare, at least the places where I hang out. GS 90 miles from me may stock-have to give a call when ever I get around to trying the 30-40 black loads, I do get up there once and a while. Hardwood dowel sounds good! Thanks for the info!