Authenticity

[Templar]

Well pards, thanks for all the lectures, but you are still missing my point.

I have the ability to cowboy shoot every weekend her in SC. I am not leaving the sport.

Neither will I participate in the regional or annual matches for NCOWS when they have decided to marginalize my shooting style. I shoot duelist, fully loaded 45 LC, stock as mfg Colt revolvers, stock 1873 carbine and a 12 gauge mule eared shotgun. That has to be the slowest combination of firearms allowed in either NCOWS or SASS.

I don't give a hoot about your trophys, accolades, prizes or rewards. I shoot purely for the fun and my personal satisfaction.

BUT, here I am taking a stand. I refuse to support an organization who changed the rules without my consent or input. None of you have made a compelling argument for forcing duelist to compete against the two handed anachronistic style.

I am tired of being part of the silent majority. I do not agree with this latest rule change. I am taking a stand against it. Since i can't vote against it, I will vote with my checkbook. I will not support any NCOWS event that supports this change.

The previous rules were just fine. Again, the TC made the change, they can live with the consequences.

Maybe, just maybe, I can convince more duelists to stand up for what they believe in. I have already heard from several who will NOT renew their NCOWS membership in 2018.

Captain Quigley
1st U.S. Cavalry
NCOWS L-131
SASS 4243 Life
NRA Life member
Etc.

[Major 2]

OK then .... 

[Professor Marvel]

Well Templar,

I thoroughly understand "taking a stand".
everyone has to do what they think best.

please try not to let it affect your health. we need to keep all the good guys we can.

please stay healthy
with all respect and
best regards
prof marvel

[Templar]

Well thank you Professor Marvel.

No worries pardner.

I am as fit as I can be considering the "exuberant" life I have led and am as healthy as Our Good Lord will allow.

Now retired, I am having a hard time fitting in all the fun stuff I do.

The single most important "litmus" test for me is that it has to be fun. When a leisure activity ceases to be fun due to my physical ability, time and distance to attend, cost, or "Onerous" rules, the it gets bounced off the list

May God watch over you and your family.

Quig

[Will Ketchum]

My Dear Greyhawk -

actually I do understand it. I AM that punter.I practiced long and hard!

When shooting 1911's competetively I practiced daily and reloaded everynight. after well over 18 months , with coaching,  I was forced to come to grips with the reality that I would never make the top 10%  locally, let alone regionally. Once I came to deal with that, I found I practiced less but enjoyed it more!  Oddly, with the insane pressure off, I found my scores improved...

I also shot A LOT of trap, but was never competitive there either. However that was far more fun and had more friendly comaraderie ( much like CAS) and FUN SHOOTS ( like CAS) .

The big difference was the clubs.

The Bullseye, Bowling Pin, PPC, and IPSC crowds were deadly serious and cut-throat .

On the Other Hand, The old Trap Club and the local CAS ( oh, and the local archery club!!) are more laid back,
more supportive of each other, and far friendlier. It's all about the friendships.

And that is where I get my jollies and my accolades.  
Just having the locals say,
      "Damn Prof, you were even funnier this time than last! But you're shooting safely and hitting the tragets!
       "How long was your time this time anyway?"
That is plenty for me.

If one has a NEED to compete - then compete against yourself !
Work to better your accuracy, your times, your smoothness and transitions.
When practicing use a timer, and knockdowns, and keep moving them further back....

And remember, since this is NCOWS - one can compete by improving your personna, costume, accoutrements, background,
support doco ....


This is going to sound all Zen and philosophical and etc, but :

= Its a GAME.
       There are always winners and losers. learn to lose gracefully it happens more often.
        In some games some folks will never be a winner. ( like me and poker.) - learn to accept it.

= Understand your limitations, and accept them.
       Remember,  you will never sing better than the nightingale.
       But that doesn't mean stop trying to improve

= "Dance like no one is watching"
       Play the game out of joy.
       If you are not enjoying it you're doing it wrong. Or need to pick another game.

= Pick the right wolf to feed!
      An Old Ojibaway Elder once told me -
       Inside all of us are several wolves that fight amongst themselves:
          Fear, Anger, Greed, Envy, Hate; but also
          Selflessness, Generosity, Compassion, Forgiveness,and Love
       The wolves you feed within you will grow strong and win .
        Pick the right Wolves.


hope this helps
prof marvel

PS: - most of this is called Good Sportsmanship, and
I learned it in Gradeschool playing softball, basketball, tag football, all games I did only average at.  
Have we forgotten Good Sportsmanship in the extreme competetiveness to win at any cost?

When there are posts like this one I often wish we had "like" button as Face Book does.


Will Ketchum

[James Hunt]

Authenticity and two handed shooting. I have seen ONE primary source reference of two handed shooting in a late 19th century gunfight. It was done by a participant in a posse out of Buffalo Wy going into the Hole in the Wall country after outlaws. The writer stated they first engaged rustlers on horseback, he dismounted and took careful aim using two hands in aiming at his opponent.

If this is important I will put the effort in finding that source (book) as it is in my library somewhere. While I agree that any comment on two handed shooting is almost non-existent, I have always wondered about it. It provides a more stable shooting platform and that can not have taken several hundred years to discover. It may have been simply not worth mentioning.

[Professor Marvel]

My Dear Will and Coffinmaker, you guys will make my head smell (damn you autocorrect)  swell worse than it already is ..... :-)


My Good James -

Authenticity and two handed shooting. I have seen ONE primary source reference of two handed shooting in a late 19th century gunfight. It was done by a participant in a posse out of Buffalo Wy going into the Hole in the Wall country after outlaws. The writer stated they first engaged rustlers on horseback, he dismounted and took careful aim using two hands in aiming at his opponent.

If this is important I will put the effort in finding that source (book) as it is in my library somewhere. While I agree that any comment on two handed shooting is almost non-existent, I have always wondered about it. It provides a more stable shooting platform and that can not have taken several hundred years to discover......

I would love to see that if you can find it! the more actual period doco we can unearth the better!

.......... It may have been simply not worth mentioning.

Thank you Monsiuer Hunt, now I can take this opportunity for some thread drift!

That is one of the biggest bugaboo in any historian's bag - who documents the little stuff?
It's a huge problem concerning "common materials used as tinder prior to Lucifers"

At the time, no one even thought to write down most of what went on, stuff that was considered so common
that "everybody knew" and it was "common sense " at the time.

A lot of Docents accept the party line that "all houses were drafty" and people just accepted it at the time and suffered.
In fact drafts were considered a source of ill health and efforts were made beyond mere chinking and included plastering and
in some cases, caulking as tho the house were a boat, using oakum and tar ( which, btw was common Pine Pitch,
not petroleum tar) which also gave the home lovely piney scent .....

back to the thread, the prof has babbeled enough....

yhs
prof marvel

[greyhawk]

My Dear Will and Coffinmaker, you guys will make my head smell (damn you autocorrect)  swell worse than it already is ..... :-)


My Good James -

I would love to see that if you can find it! the more actual period doco we can unearth the better!



Thank you Monsiuer Hunt, now I can take this opportunity for some thread drift!

That is one of the biggest bugaboo in any historian's bag - who documents the little stuff?
It's a huge problem concerning "common materials used as tinder prior to Lucifers"

At the time, no one even thought to write down most of what went on, stuff that was considered so common
that "everybody knew" and it was "common sense " at the time.

A lot of Docents accept the party line that "all houses were drafty" and people just accepted it at the time and suffered.
In fact drafts were considered a source of ill health and efforts were made beyond mere chinking and included plastering and
in some cases, caulking as tho the house were a boat, using oakum and tar ( which, btw was common Pine Pitch,
not petroleum tar) which also gave the home lovely piney scent .....

back to the thread, the prof has babbeled enough....

yhs
prof marvel

Lets drift some more - drafty walls - I wuz in Nebrasky visiting in 2005 when a blizzard hit (a proper one) an old timer told me stories about the one in '42 ?   - anyway part of his story wuz ifn a little cabin out on the plains had so much as a finger size knothole in the exposed wall the wind would funnel through and fill that place up to the rafters with fine blown snow - I had gotten up that morning after a night of howling wind to most of an inch of ice crystals on the window sill inside my room - everything was tight shut but ya could feel wind coming in over the top of one section through a slit that would scarce pass a razor blade - the overlap between the two sections of the sash window - hold yer hand there for a bit and sure enough little ice crystals hitting it -----sooooo darn good reason for plugging those old places up like a bottle

[llanerosolitario]

. It provides a more stable shooting platform...

We can have several different views about that...I have my own opinion.  Anyway, we should not forget the military origin of most revolver designs we use today for sport shooting.

and the military wanted the enemy dead at long distance. And for long distance one hand is better, more accurate and comfortable.

When the distance is short...anything can happen....one hand, two...under stress normally two hands...but.sometimes there is only time for one hand and instict shooting.....

most deadly encounters in the West took place  againts the very dangerous indian fighter, extremly efective in close combat so the military drill was one hand shooting taking aim carefully to hit the enemy at long distance.....and being an army or civil war veteran in those times was quite common.

.Most quarrels and gunfights among civilians in the West took place under the influence of alcohol or when women were around....so probably one hand shooting in drunk condition.

most law men  chasing outlaws in the West took no risk and avoided at all cost open encounters...probably one  hand shooting from a hiding position was key to survive.

most cattle wars were just plain murdering each other with the rifle from a safe distance or with the pistol shooting from the back...I dont see much point in two hand  shooting.

on the other side, most  target shooting disciplines that were born at the end of the XIX century have a very obvious military origin......in other words, one hand shooting. There  was not in the time much  literature about self defense shooting ( much was written about duelling, however) most soldiers, inmigrants and otlaws could hardly read their own languaje..

in my opinion, people from the end of the 1970s until present times, have being preconditioned to 2 hand shooting because of Hollywood, IPSC and action shooting disciplines, and  gun writers. Nothing of that 150 years ago.

The art of duelling, in fact, was a key influence in the developing of target shooting and military drill in the Old times.....and duelling involved one hand shooting with a bent elbow (uncomfortable in my opinion)  to provide some protection to the face and upper chest.  

[Templar]

Well said Mr. Llanerosolitario,

It appears you have done your research as a historian.

I quote from The book of "Cavalry Tactics"
written by Brig. Gen. Philip Cooke
in the year of Our Lord, 1861

Manual of the Pistol pages65 and 66

"Draw Pistol": at the command," pistol", "with the right hand unbutton the flap of the belt holster, draw the pistol, and holding it at the stock, with the point of the forefinger reaching above the trigger guard, carry it vertically, with the hand as high as the right should, and 6 inches in front of it."

This is my documentation of military training in the use of the pistol.

Captain Quigley

[Will Ketchum]

Llanerosolitario, I must take exception with your statement that one hand shooting is more accurate at long range. If it were so metallic silhouette shooters would have shot one handed.  I never witnessed that in my years of participating in that sport.
Now with that said for me as in individual I shoot as well if not better with one hand vs two but it's probably because I am a classically, Marine, trained bulls eye shooter and feel constrained when shooting two handed. However when a precise shot is required I tend to use two hands.     

Will Ketchum

[Ol Gabe]

Ah, geez, Pete,
Your jist a "classically, Marine, trained bulls eye shooter...", yup, a Bull Shooter fer sure and certain, said with pride that I am blessed to know such a stalwart Jarhead!
As one of the above-collectively-mentioned Shooters, I've fallen into and through most every category mentioned then falling knees-first into the handicapped zone. I feel it can all be summed up in a simple answer that may defy common sense and logic, to wit: you simply need to use your costume as a prop for the class, i.e., wear a sling on one arm and use that arm/hand as a brace for whichever format of holding the revolver works out the best for you. Simple, effective and chock-full of 'style points'!
And for those waddies above that may have forgotten the official NCOWS rules and regs, any individual party starting out in NCOWS as a new member has a full year to acquire any and all the gear he/she may need to fit in the segment of Western history they desire to assume at any 'official' NCOWS-sponsored event. This is a given, please look it up and refer to it when contemplating venting your collective spleens on what many seem to think are the alleged 'Thread Police' we support and maintain. BTW, they don't exist, PERIOD.
OK, now there may be some members that are overly zealous and want the sport/hobby to be as perfect as is humanly possible, they might excel in historically-correct wear and accoutrements such as leather wear, etc., and everyone attending MUST follow-through as they do but even they should be big enough and calm enough to smile and say to the newbie, "...here, let me show you how to make it work on a limited budget and what to strive for if you want to be the Top Dog in the field..."
Well, with that said and 'splained, I can only wish you all God speed and "...lay on McDuff!" if you want to pick me apart from the concepts only you can espouse.
Best regards and good shooting!
'Ol Gabe
NCOWS #925
P.S. Don't get out much anymore so I'll jist add, "Thanks for the memories!"

[Coffinmaker]

Greyhawk,

Yep.  Drafty can be a real problem.  Alaska is also a place where metal and synthetic window frames and such are prohibited by necessity to prevent Ice formation during the Winter months.  Building codes require wooden window frames to prevent said Ice from forming during the cold months (Everything except July and August).

Yessiree Bob.  Drafty just don't cut it.  Not one bit.

[Coffinmaker]

Just a couple of small points.  Citing the instruction of some wheezing Military General of the day is ludicrous.  In the time frame cited, the military didn't know what to do with a handgun.  A hand gun was seen as an absolute last resort.  Marksmanship with a handgun wasn't even taught.  Let us remember, those were the same folks whom opined a repeating rifle was a waste of ammunition and still believed in well ordered lines of solders opposite more well ordered lines, so they could shoot at one another as ducks in a shooting gallery.

If you ever bother to study some of the photographs of the men who lived by the gun in the era, there is one salient feature.  Their rifle.  Rough men carried rifles as their primary arm.  Pistols were included as an absolute last resort.  Law men of the era, carried Rifles and Shotguns.  Pistols were only seen to be of use in urban settings and more often to wallop some miscreant over the head.

Urban gunfights (mostly saloons) were historically carried out at something more like 7 FEET.  Or 3 feet across a card table.  One notable law man of the age was quoted "If you find yourself in a fair fight, you've done something terribly wrong."

I think NCOWS should legitimize "Gunfighter".   Gunfighter is one hand shooting.  Just the expedient of having a gun in EACH HAND.

[greyhawk]

Looks to me like this argyment has kinda gone off at a tangent ?? isnt the primary issue that a two hand shooter has a decided advantage over a one hander playing the SASS game?
1) he can go much faster - cocking with left thumb while he holds n triggers with right - some are slip hammering I bet - holding trigger down while working hammer wid other thumb
2) regardless of the evidence you guys present around military and target shooting - for most of us two handed is a much more secure and steadier aim - (not particularly relevant to the SASS game where speed counts) try doing two hands at a regular target pistol club in a match where scores matter - you get banished from the range or at least severely reprimanded soon as ya other mit touches - just like in bronc or bull ridin - use of the free hand to steady ya is a no go . you is  d - i - s - q - u- a - l - i -f  i - e - d ! ! ! !
It must make a serious difference or it would not cause such a ruckus .

I dont reckon this is about authenticity so much as its about fairness in the competition - tother argyments are distractions ---- just two bobs worth from down under   

[llanerosolitario]

Llanerosolitario, I must take exception with your statement that one hand shooting is more accurate at long range. If it were so metallic silhouette shooters would have shot one handed.  I never witnessed that in my years of participating in that sport.
Now with that said for me as in individual I shoot as well if not better with one hand vs two but it's probably because I am a classically, Marine, trained bulls eye shooter and feel constrained when shooting two handed. However when a precise shot is required I tend to use two hands.    

Will Ketchum

Metallic cartridge is about hitting, not about getting scores.

If shooting two hands were more accurate, ISSF 50 meters pistol  shooters, who shoot 22 lr pistols one hand at 50 meters, would surely use 2 hands and as a consequence would demand a change in the rules to allow it. But they know that two hands shoting is, in fact, a drawbck when compiting againts an acomplished one hand shooter in pure accuracy matches.

these guys are able to put 60 rounds in the area of a small cup of tea at 50 meters, not only thanks to intensive training and excellent single shot pistols and selected ammo, but also because one hand shooting provides more eye relief to the sights, which means less angular mistakes, but also  allows the shooter to modify the grip to make the gun melt with the hand and arm  ( as well as having more trigger feeling and control). The fact that the shooting eye  is perfectly behind the sights without  any momentum or angle as in two hands shooting  is important too to avoid or minimize the pararell and horizontal mistake in sights aligment, in the long distance shooting.

The sum of all those facts above  means  that, technically and practically,  shooting one hand is the most adequate position for maximum accuracy...at the price of more fatigue in the shooting arm after 30 rounds..( matches are 60 rounds). More demanding, but tecnically more rewarding too. This was well known in the old times and has also a military origin.







It is interesting to say that these disciplines are old, being most from the late XIX and widely practised with  modified centerfire revolvers in its time....interesting  also how little known they are,  outside Europe and Assia.


in my opinion, the revolver as a military tool in the USA had great importance. It was a key gun in the Mexican American war, specially againts armoured mexican lancers, and in the later indian wars, its 6 shots ( loading 5 is something  from modern times) capacity provided more chances to survive for the soldier or pionner at a time when repeating arms were not allways avaiable and the most common arm was the single shot.

I dont think that life in the Old West towns was specially violent. Everybody was well armed, so most people were polite. Just  a bad word to a decent woman could mean being linched or hanged, or, at least, being whipped. There was not a urban self  defense  culture or discipline in the Old West cities......the  main danger in the  Old West was far away from the city,  where the hostile savage attacked, ambushed and provoked terror. Or where army deserters,  or criminal gangs were active, attacking, destroying, creating havoc like in post  War times.

Gunfights in the West surely were few ...thats why some became famous.


note: the size of the black of the international  pistol target is about  2 mm from 50 meters. The world record is about 583....of 600 maximum for 60 shots.... it literally means at least 80 % of rounds in a dime area at 50 meters standing.

[Professor Marvel]

...
If shooting two hands were more accurate, ISSF 50 meters pistol  shooters, who shoot 22 lr pistols one hand at 50 meters, would surely use 2 hands and as a consequence would demand a change in the rules to allow it. But they know that two hands shoting is, in fact, a drawbck when compiting againts an acomplished one hand shooter in pure accuracy matches.
....

these guys are able to put 60 rounds in the area of a small cup of tea at 50 meters, not only thanks to intensive training and excellent single shot pistols and selected ammo, but also because one hand shooting provides more eye relief to the sights, which means less angular mistakes, but also  allows the shooter to modify the grip to make the gun melt with the hand and arm  ( as well as having more trigger feeling and control). The fact that the shooting eye  is perfectly behind the sights without  any momentum or angle as in two hands shooting  is important too to avoid or minimize the pararell and horizontal mistake in sights aligment, in the long distance shooting.

...
The sum of all those facts above  means  that, technically and practically,  shooting one hand is the most adequate position for maximum accuracy...at the price of more fatigue in the shooting arm after 30 rounds..( matches are 60 rounds). More demanding, but tecnically more rewarding too. This was well known in the old times and has also a military origin.

Sorry Llanero, but this is all opinion and speculation, what you offer as "facts" are not facts. They are observations and then conjecture.

Whilst your historic doco is correct, your opinion is really not "fact" and you provide no supporting factual evidence.

Once again, you are using Euro-biased sports rules as if they were based in scientific fact, and spinning twisted speculation to support your opinion. Your example shooters shoot one-handed becasue those are the rules they have to follow.
Trying to change those rules in the EU is like trying to move a mountain.

I really have no time to spend to find and post facts to refute your false dreaming, bu I will suggest you search for
"Ed McGivern" "Elmer Keith" "Col Wesson" and "long distance handgun" where you will find fact-based doco regarding
all of their use of 2 hands, one hand and bent knee,  and other supports to provide pistol accuraccy at long ranges.

As previously posted by Will Ketchum, you have also completely ignored the achievements of long distance metallic silhouette shooters - the champions shoot two-handed or "freestyle".  

I would really like to see your shooters try to compete in metallic silhouette. Metallic Silhouette Standing pistol is the most difficult discipline; no one has shot a perfect 40x40.

prof marvel

PS - ok I lied I looked one up. this was too good to pass up:
In 1997 Rich Mishler set the world record and won hitting 34/40 Targets,
Slamming Down 9/10 Rams at 500 Meters.
This Was Open Sights, Handguns, 500 Meters Freestyle.

Freestyle includes some unusual positions, such as the Creedmoor position, which is shot lying on the back, legs bent and feet flat on the ground, with the pistol resting on the shooter's right leg. ie: NOT your EU 0ne-hand pistol stance.

at 500 meters I myself can hardly SEE the RAM target.

[Coffinmaker]

Pro M,

You also forgot to mention the referenced discipline as depicted in the provided moving pictures also has Custom Built, Recoil attenuated, .22 LR caliber, tailored to fit grip sets and a price tag to give apoplexy.  Which also have no practical application.

AloneRanger:
While your "expert" observations are .... interesting .... I'd like to point out ... an "Ex" is a has been and "Spert" is mearly a drip under pressure.  As noted by Pro M, your observations are somewhat suspect such as those of a Troll.

[Will Ketchum]

I think we have exhausted this subject to it's final destination.   I was hoping Jim Hunt would find his citation to enlighten us so I kept this thread alive. I have decided to lock it. If Mr. hunt finds said citation he can PM me and I'll unlock it.

Will Ketchum
NCOWS Board Moderator