.45-70 load recommendation

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Hello the Camp!
I was asked a question that I could not answer at our match yesterday so I am here seeking knowledge.

One of the shooters asked me what I would recommend for a .45-70 load to use for 100 yard Cody/Dixon competition using a 405 grain bullet. My .45-70 load is 55 grains of FFg gun powder with a 405 grain Big Lube bullet so I really have no good idea on a smokeless powder to recommend.

My suggestion was to look in a reloading manual and start with a minimum load using a cast bullet that gives a fairly low velocity to start. He is using these loads in a high wall rifle so what he wants is a target load not a hunting load.

What powder or powders (not weight) would you recommend for a starting load? That way I can point him to where to look in a loading manual.

I recommended the gunpowder load I use but he decided not to get into the gleaning chore with gun and brass.
Any suggestions would be appreciated
Bunk

[Trailrider]

IMR4198, IMR3031, Varget, and possibly H4831. Check the Lyman 48th Edition. The HiWall, whether an original Winchester or a replica is a moderately strong rifle, and the smaller, centrally-hung hammer jars the rifle less on firing.

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Thanks Trail Rider I will pass this on. i did recommend the 5744 (?) powder made by Accurate any thoughts on it?
Bunk

[Ranch 13]

5744 is a good powder when used according to the manufacturers direction.
In today's world of powder supply, I'ld second the motion to get a Lyman 48, have him make a list of possible candidate powder then head to the local slobber shops to see what he can find, then work a load up from there.

[Trailrider]

Thanks Trail Rider I will pass this on. i did recommend the 5744 (?) powder made by Accurate any thoughts on it?
Bunk

Not sure if 5744 hasn't been discontinued.  It doesn't fill much of the case. I think there are better choices...

[Blackfoot]

For short range like that I like to shoot 405gr lead bullets with 13gr of Trailboss powder.  At that range there is no need for "buffalo loads".

Blackfoot

[Steel Striker]

For short range like that I like to shoot 405gr lead bullets with 13gr of Trailboss powder.  At that range there is no need for "buffalo loads".

Blackfoot

Yes, I've used about 13gr Unique for same 'plinking'.  TB would be nearly equivalent.  I use my limited supply of TB for 45LC, 'cause Unique is more available here.

My wife loves to shoot 45-70 Marlin with these light loads; says she can at least see the holes!  Her 22LR Henry is now a safe queen...

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I use a load of 4895 which matches a starting load from Hodgdon's data for the trapdoor rifle. The Mv is about the same as a stout load of FFFg Goex. I doubt if you will need more than trapdoor starting level loads of any powder.

P.S; Just a comment on Trailboss compared to 4895 from Hodgdon's data;

405 cast bullet starting loads for the trapdoor;

H4895      40.0gr  mv 1424fps   pres.14,900CUP
Trailboss. 12.0gr.  mv 971fps    pres. 24,500CUP   Note; less powder. less velocity. MORE PRESSURE!

(All you might be gaining is lower cost.  You decide.)

[PJ Hardtack]

I buy 5744 all the time. My favourite smokeless powder in 45-70 and 50-70.

Not sure if 5744 hasn't been discontinued.  It doesn't fill much of the case. I think there are better choices...

[wildman1]

I use a load of 4895 which matches a starting load from Hodgdon's data for the trapdoor rifle. The Mv is about the same as a stout load of FFFg Goex. I doubt if you will need more than trapdoor starting level loads of any powder.

P.S; Just a comment on Trailboss compared to 4895 from Hodgdon's data;

405 cast bullet starting loads for the trapdoor;

H4895      40.0gr  mv 1424fps   pres.14,900CUP
Trailboss. 12.0gr.  mv 971fps    pres. 24,500CUP   Note; less powder. less velocity. MORE PRESSURE!

(All you might be gaining is lower cost.  You decide.)

I try to tell people that TB is a high pressure low velocity  powder whenever they talk about using it in rifles and their eyes glaze over and its like they enter a trance. It just does not compute. wM1

[Montana Slim]

A few observations & experiences with smokeless propellants...
I've seen the textbook starting loads for smokeless loads in 45-70 wipe the smile right-off of folks faces. To get lower recoil, many drop down below book value. I don't recommend this, but that's the shooters choice. I've also seen a modern Marlin Lever 45-70 split in half from a shooter using a charge of Unique powder with a 405 bullet. I don't recall the exact charge weight, but recall him stating it was only a few grains beyond the recommended max.

My dad wanted to shoot light (405 gr) loads using smokeless in his Sharps Rifle (45-70).
After some experimentation with smokeless, he found my advice to shoot BP appealing. His discovery was smokeless + commercial hard bullets/hard lube in this chambering left a combination of residue more difficult to clean than BP....and recoil was sharper than my 500 grain BP loads.

If one must shoot smokeless, I'd recommend soft-cast bullets having a BP-type lube (50/50 beeswax & Crisco). Much easier to cleanup as opposed to commercial hard-cast. If all one has is commercial bullets, it's a simple matter to melt off the supplied lube in preparation to pan-lube.

This could be considered an interim step on the path to true enlightenment. 



Slim

[wildman1]

A few observations & experiences with smokeless propellants...
I've seen the textbook starting loads for smokeless loads in 45-70 wipe the smile right-off of folks faces. To get lower recoil, many drop down below book value. I don't recommend this, but that's the shooters choice. I've also seen a modern Marlin Lever 45-70 split in half from a shooter using a charge of Unique powder with a 405 bullet. I don't recall the exact charge weight, but recall him stating it was only a few grains beyond the recommended max.

My dad wanted to shoot light (405 gr) loads using smokeless in his Sharps Rifle (45-70).
After some experimentation with smokeless, he found my advice to shoot BP appealing. His discovery was smokeless + commercial hard bullets/hard lube in this chambering left a combination of residue more difficult to clean than BP....and recoil was sharper than my 500 grain BP loads.

If one must shoot smokeless, I'd recommend soft-cast bullets having a BP-type lube (50/50 beeswax & Crisco). Much easier to cleanup as opposed to commercial hard-cast. If all one has is commercial bullets, it's a simple matter to melt off the supplied lube in preparation to pan-lube.

This could be considered an interim step on the path to true enlightenment. 



Slim

There is NOTHING in your statement that I disagree with. You hit the nail on the head. wM1

[Steel Striker]

I recently used 27gr - 29gr IMR4198 to simulate Trapdoor loading.  Pleasant to shoot & accurate @ 100 yds.  I'd show the target, but Gson took it for his 'man cave'.

I've since been adding 'cotton ball' filler & suspect it's grouping tighter.  My .461"- 405gr, hardcast pills are Delux Xlox tumble lubed & haven't messed up the barrel with as much as 39gr IMR4198.  No chrono yet.

[Steel Striker]

Here's the data from today's range work...

Date   Range   Air Temp.   Wind   Rifle/Pistol   Bullet   Bullet Wgt. Gr. w/ Lube   Lube   Case   Powder / Primer
9/17/2016   WSA   81   5-10   Marlin 1895GS   My "Mountain Mold" .461"-405gr Hardcast, sized   404-405   Delux X-Lox   W-W   IMR4198      Fed Mag
                           
Grains FPS   Range    Group Size                 Comment         
                Yards
29   n/a   50         Zero 1" Low. No re-adjusting scope zero, rather relying on Hash Marks for 100yd elevation Holds.   All rnds were "filled' w/cotton to eliminate one variable, as I do not know powder position sensitivity.      
      
29   n/a   100   4", 2.5" @ 4:30      Zero 1" Low @ 50yd; hold 1st HM            
30   n/a   100   5", 2.5" @ 4:30      Zero 1" Low @ 50yd; hold 1st HM            
31   n/a   100   6", 2" @7:30      Zero @ 50yd; 1st HM; Windage 5 clks to Left            
32   n/a   100   3", 2" @ 9:00      Zero 2" High @ 50yd; hold 1st HM            
33   n/a   100   4", 2.5" @ 11:00      Zero 1.5" High @ 50yd; hold 1st HM; followup re-zero chk 2" Hi-Right            
34   n/a   100   4", 2" @ 10:30      Zero 2" High @ 50yd; hold dead center            
35   n/a   100   4", 1.5" @ 1:30      Zero 2" High @ 50yd; hold dead center; best grp!   Includes a "big" hole in bullseye & @ 3:00 1" out!            
                           
Positioned scope fully forward, just kissing the non-cylindrical portions, to assure no more axial movement.    Steve feels my "DNZ" ring assy. may not be up to the task in this rifle/ammo combination, to accomodate desired eye relief.    True, but corporate funds for this project have been spent getting the scope & rings to begin with.    Ultimately, the goal is to install short range ladder sight & learn its calibration for 50yd-XXXyds. & not have to trust a scope, which looks out of place on this fine lever gun anyway!   ///    Went thru about 90 rnds, more fun than I deserve...LOL   Haven't swabbed bbl yet for leading, but I rather doubt it as the groups were not terrible.  During last 3 runs, I could see my pulse affecting the hold by at least 2" @ 100yd.   I draped a dbl'd towel over shoulder which helped isolate me from the hardware.    Covering some groups with my fist is encouraging.