T.E. Lawrence used a Colt 1911

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Remember the train ambush in the Movie?

http://www.archaeology.org/issues/221-1607/trenches/4550-trenches-jordan-lawrence-bullet

[Grapeshot]

I find that hard to believe.  That area was the site of conflict in both world wars.  I can see T.E. Lawrence using a .455 Webley but not a .45 ACP Colt 1911.

[Coffinmaker]

Well ..... far be for me ........ knowing nothing from archeology except people digging inna dirt ......... but, from my ignorant standpoint,
the only conclusion that can be drawn from the find of 1, that's ONE, a single example, of a bullet in the sand, or dirt, or gravel, is .....
that you have in FACT found ONE single solitary BULLET in the sand.  It came from a gun (ok, i buy that).  Beyond that, there are
no conclusions to be drawn.  Except ........ TA DA..... someone found a (one) bullet.  In the sand.  In the approximate area.  It means
......... actually .......... TA DA ........ nothing.  Zero.  Zilch.  Nada.  Patooie!!

Coffinmaker
(Card Carrying dues paying member of Skeptics World Wide)

[Professor Marvel]

I too had some doubts, esp vis-a-vis a Brit getting and carrying a 1911....

BUT

from
https://archive.org/stream/TheColt1911Pistol/The_Colt_1911_Pistol_djvu.txt

It is likely that the most famous British user of the 1911 in World War I
was T. E. Lawrence. In September 1914 Lawrence received two Colt 1911
pistols, reportedly a gift from Gertrude Bell. He was quite fond of the
weapons and carried them throughout his service with the Arabs. Lawrence's
brother Frank also carried a 1911 until he was killed in France during 1915.

and

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/telawrence.htm
Even as a university undergraduate traveling in the Middle east in 1909, he carried a modern weapon of good quality, a Mauser model 1896 semi-automatic pistol with a capacity of ten high-velocity cartridges. He mentioned this pistol in a letter to his mother written in October 1909, informing her that he "sold my Mauser pistol (at a profit) in Beyrout on my departure (5 pounds)". When he went to war in 1914 officers could use the pistol of their choice and Lawrence, like Churchill, chose the Colt Model 1911 which is still considered one of the finest combat pistols of all time.
...
. On september 18, 1914, he received two Colt automatic pistols from America, sent at his request by a friend travelling there. (There was a shortage of pistols in England for several weeks after the war broke out.) Lawrence did not mention the model, but a letter from his brother Frank, who became an officer at the outbreak of the war and was killed in France in 1915, contains information that leads one to the conclusion that it could only have been a Colt Model 1911 in .45 caliber. Frank Lawrence wrote to T. E. Lawrence in September 1914:

The Colt is a lovely pistol. The more I examine it the more I like it. There is a vast gulf between it and the ordinary revolver.

If you want anything in connection with it which you don't want to write for I could get it for you. They keep two weights of bullets, I think 200 and 230 grains. The lighter weight has considerably higher velocity and penetrating power, though I suppose less shock.

This would indicate that both Frank and T. E. had Colt automatics that used the 200 or 230 grain bullets. In 1914 this would have been the .45 caliber Model 1911. (The British also used the Colt 1911 in .455 caliber, but this chambering was not introduced until 1915.)

And Thus, Sir Chas assertion  "T.E. Lawrence used a Colt 1911" is upheld!


then going to the archeology websites, we find ( to summarize)
at the train ambush site,
which is rahter remote and had few other battles
archeologists found a lot of european and turk bullets
but only a single large caliber pistol round.

While surveying the site of that attack, the team found a spent bullet that was fired from a Colt 1911 automatic pistol, a weapon that would have been extremely rare in the Middle East at the time—and that Lawrence is known to have carried.


http://phys.org/news/2016-04-bullet-lawrence-arabia-liar.html
(includes excellent photo of spent bullet)

Professor Nicholas Saunders said: "The bullet we found came from a Colt automatic pistol, the type of gun known to be carried by Lawrence and almost certainly not used by any of the ambush's other participants."

and yes, they did consult actual firearms experts:

http://www.livescience.com/54321-lawrence-of-arabia-bullet-found.html
A distinctive weapon

That type of gun was unlikely to have been used by anyone else at the ambush, said archaeologist Nicholas Saunders, one of the leaders of the team that investigated the site. Saunders co-directs the Great Arab Revolt Project (GARP), whose members have excavated a number of Arabian Desert locations where key battles were fought during the Arab Revolt between 1916 and 1918.

A Jordanian army escort accompanied Saunders and his team during their work on the ambush site, which lies in a demilitarized zone between Saudi Arabia and Jordan. A metal detector led the researchers to the bullet, Saunders told Live Science in an email.

Though the bullet was clearly different from the hundreds of other expended cartridges at the site, the archaeologists didn't recognize the find's significance right away, Saunders said. Handgun experts on the team conferred with an international network of specialists to identify the bullet as originating from a Colt 1911 automatic pistol, rather than from a rifle or other pistol of British, German or Turkish make that accounted for most of the spent ammunition the researchers found.

"It was the only Colt 1911 bullet found at Hallat Ammar," Saunders said, adding that Lawrence was the only person known to carry one of these guns during the ambush.

and here's a bigger photo
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/archaeology/1.713171

So, as fara as definitve proof that would hold up in a court of law ... no

But the series of circumstancial evidence leads us to suggest a very high probablity .

But now my image of Peter O'Toole standing on a wrecked steam locomotive holding a Mauser Broomhandle is dashed!

yhs
prof ( surprised!) marvel

[Delmonico]

I'd say the chance is much better that it is than it isn't.

[Coffinmaker]

Be all that it may be ...... or may not be...... Ah ...... Too Be...Ah.. or.. not to Bee.  There lies the rub. 

Now, in patent truth, I find the idea of T.E. Lawrence with a 1911 to be really kinda cool.  But lets face it, in appearance, no matter where,
the 1911 is rather ....... pedestrian.  Bland if you will.  Sort of ...... BORING!!

Now, Pete Otootle, up on a Rail Car, flowing White Robes, Flashy head band and brandishing a BROOMHANDLE!!  Now that's the stuff that
KOOL is made of.  The Broomhandle just has so much more panache and flair.  Plus, it looks BIGGER, menacing if you will.

Sorry, I'll stick with the Broomhandle.  The .45 ACP projectile is nothing more than a plant.  Intended to generate interest anew in long
ago lore.  Besides, I also really liked his Motorcycle.  Motorcycles and Broomhandles.  Don't get much better n dat.

Coffinmaker

[Blair]

I would have thought ammo supply might be an issue for a 1911 in that part of the world?
Would a revolver like a Webley set up for .45 auto and the moon clips have been more likely? But then again ammo and the moon clips may still be hard to come by?
Just a thought on my part...
My best,
Blair

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

In 1914, when Canadian officers, both regular & militia, were considering joining the C.E.F (Canadian Expeditionary Force) their universal demand was for issuance of the Colt 1911.

We all know the 1911 was a great pistol, but even in 1914 it was recognized for its greatness.

[Drydock]

Webleys were not converted to .45acp until well after the war.  WW2 that is.  And then only by importers here in the USA.  With varying degrees of skill.    And little or no knowledge of British Nitro Proof or SAAMI specifications  

 But the .45acp was well known world wide by 1914,  as the cartridge itself dates to 1905.  The 1911 was only the most successful platform to use it.  By 1915 the British had purchased 17,000 commercial grade 1911s in 45 acp, and the cartridge was in their supply system.

Most of these, along with other purchases like Colt Army Specials, New Services, S&W K and N frames, all in commercial calibers, were sent to secondary theaters. (Like the Middle East) to free up .455 Webleys for the Western front.

The Brits later contracted with Colt for around 70,000 1911s in .45 WSL (Webley Self Loading), with most going to the RFC/RAF.

(FYI, standard 45acp loads are proof equivalent loads in a Webley.  Use only lower pressure hand loads in these revolvers. Please!  I have one, wonderful gun, I'd venture shot very little after conversion, as it is still factory "Tight".  Factory jacketed 45 acp can loosen/stretch/just plain blow up a Webley.)

[Delmonico]

And how many rounds would one really need for a combat pistol?   

[pony express]

And how many rounds would one really need for a combat pistol?   

We probably shoot more (pistol) rounds at a Muster than most shot in a campaign. If he stashed a couple of boxes in his gear, that'd probably do for the whole war.

[Delmonico]

We probably shoot more (pistol) rounds at a Muster than most shot in a campaign. If he stashed a couple of boxes in his gear, that'd probably do for the whole war.

Probably one box if the truth was known, Indian Wars they issued 24.  Have heard at times needing carbine ammo, never read where they were low on the pistol ammo.

[Major 2]

A romantic might wish to buy into the conjecture, circumstantial as it is .... I'm  still skeptical, its a stretch...still 

[St. George]

Not a question at all...

He and his brother owned them and there's a diary note about ammunition being forwarded to him via mail - the number was initially 200 rounds - making a nice, compact package.

Like most serving Officers, Lawrence understood firearms, and the .45 was one of the best in the world - so he carried and used it.

Don't make the 'John Ford Reference Library' a standard reference for anything, really - and in this case, don't mistake what the actual protagonist was like as a human, since the 'real' T.E. Lawrence didn't look like 'Florence of Arabia' portrayed, for example - he looked like the professional he was, and could never have been cast in the part.

Scouts Out!