Nitrating paper for Cartridges

[Hickok]

*Also, pay just as much attention to your caps. Many feel that an open breech from a missing cap is an even greater risk of a chainfire than an un-greased ball. Rather than bet solely on either horse, I avoid the risk on both counts.



-Dave

Yep, I know what your saying, about 40 years ago,  the very first time I fired a cap and ball revolver I had that happen. The caps were a very loose fit, not knowing any better (I surely do now), I simply loaded up the pistol, greased the front of the cylinder with Crisco, put the loose caps on, and touched it off. WOW! It fired off three chambers! The cause was positively due to the loose caps, as the front of the cylinder was and the balls were "Criskoed."  Back then when you bought caps, it was one size fits all, as stores only carried one type, take it or leave it.

Not much info in those days and no internet, so for a time I just bent the caps a little in my fingers to make them tight. Nowadays I can get properly fitting caps and I also tune up my nipples/cones to have a proper tight fit.

Very good advice to all about having properly fitting caps. Since that incident so many years ago, I have never thought chain fires were the result of fire getting in from the front of the cylinder. Anything is possible, but I know for a positive fact, loose caps can cause a chain fire.

I have read Sam Colt was of the same opinion, chainfires were due to problems in the cone/nipple area. 

[Tsalagidave]

You nailed it on the cones Hickok. Although I do believe that there should be concern in regards to making sure there is either a wad or a greased ball in the tubes, I am surprised so many people overlook an exposed ignition port when firing. I never put on a big glob of grease on the chambers for the following reasons:

* It makes a terrible mess of your gun when fired.
* If fouls up your gun way too quickly.
* It is a dirt magnet when you are riding with it holstered. (This can shorten the life of your pistol.)
* In hot climates. The grease melts and gets everywhere. I don't mind sweaty and dusty but getting grease all over your kit sucks.
* Lastly, I don't like handling a loaded gun with greasy hands. (IMHO, that is just about as dangerous as it gets.)

Instead, I use a greased wad beneath the round ball or I use a conical ball (no wad) that is "greased" with only a few drops of oil as was done with original Colt's pistols. The oil will naturally bind in the crevice between the ball and chamber walls creating a seal that hot gas from other firings will not penetrate.

I recommend a conical ball that is larger than the actual chamber as opposed to a "perfect fit". The original Colt Navy mold I use makes .375 cal balls. The skirts shave off ensuring a tight fit that gas won't penetrate and the ball will not migrate away from its seat even after being jostled about for hours/days/weeks in the saddle or on the belt of a walking individual.

I am going to photograph my process and post it for the benefit of the discussion.

-Dave

[Bruce W Sims]

Hi, Folks:

I bumped this thread to have context for a question that came to me in some of my reading.

This thread is about nitrating the paper....but I have also heard mention of cartridges that were made with foil and also
with skin. Has anyone come across these as well? Any thoughts on how much operation trouble a person might run into
given the sort of problems paper left behind?  Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Montana Slim]

Great topic. I made .44 paper cartridges (for my 44 Colt) as a project when I was a kid. I gave a talk on it for speech class in high-school. How many times can YOU say "balls" or "rammer" with a straight face?

Back to the topic.....kinda. I hope to try making some tools to roll paper cartridges for my .36 Navies this winter. Will try RBs and bullets from Lee molds.

Looking back at types of cartridges available in the day... one of the cartridge brands (Hazard's?) had a special process to compress the powder into the finished cartridge shape. The bullet was then glued to the top of the powder charge. Case-less ammo. Advertised as being water-proof. Were considered a big improvement over paper and skin "catridges".
Pyrodex pellets a new idea? I think not.
I might investigate someday...just to see how it could be done.

Slim

[Octagonal Barrel]

...but I have also heard mention of cartridges that were made with foil and also
with skin.

I've heard of both, too, but can't recall my sources.  I believe the foil was a special type which burned very well much like the nitrated paper.  It's hard enough coming up with nitrated paper - I doubt you'll ever get to find and use the foil.  I think Colt made foil cartridges.  Don't recall much about the skin ones.

Tsalagidave mentions above that paper cartridges were kept in wooden boxes.  I've seen photos of Civil War vintage boxes with hole drilled for each individual cartridge.  But I recall reading that at least some cartridges were wrapped in a somewhat weather resistant foil to protect the carts inside.  You opened the box, took out the foil package and opened it by pulling a string (sort of like opening a package of chewing gum today), then you took the paper carts out of that and loaded them.  So in at least some cases, there were two different foil applications: the cartridge itself, and the wrapping that protected a pack of six foil or paper cartridges.

I think for purposes of practical living history ( and for CAS reloading-on-the-clock scenarios), Dave's idea above of nitrated paper carts stored in a wooden box with six individual holes drilled in it to house the carts is a really practical and historically accurate one.  Unless someone wants to correct me and post instructions for making either the combustible foil for cartridges themselves, or for making foil wrapping for the packages of carts, that is...  And I kind of hope someone does chime in and correct me.

[Noz]

 Tsalagidave

Cherokee?

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Tried nitrating paper with KNO3 that I tried to extracted from stump remover. There was some kind of wax like material in the brand I used and it was a mess.

My Sharps is somewhere up north being fixed to shoot "Charlies Tubes" and forget the paper cartridge business because taking 20 minutes to make one cartridge is really not worth my time.

I would rather be shooting instead of being so "period correct" thank you very much.

At least that is my take but as they say, different strokes for different folks".
Hold Center

Bunk

[rifle]

I use a shaped wood dowel and cut the papers froma template so it wrapswell. I use linin typing paper and cut lil squares of cig paper to glue to the bottoms when still on the dowel. The cap flashes right thru the cig paper.

The paper I use is soaked in the nitrate and dried. I use some combustible glue from Dixie to glue the ball inthe top of the paper after filled with powder. If gettin fancy I set a thin lube/wax pill under the ball too.

Even with the heavy nitrate to the paper there will be left over paper by the forcing cone and some in the chambers at times.

Gotta be careful when reloading to make sure no embers are still in the chambers. I look and blow in the chambers before reloading. Sometimes get to my lil screw driver to loosen the paper left in the chambers after firing. Sometimes just bust a cap in each unloaded chamber.

I've thought about extra nitrating some blackpowder and disloving the mix to wet the papers to get a complete burn to the paper. I decided the potassium nitrate is good enough to flash the paper. When I use the big cig papers to make the cartridges they seem to leave less paper in the gun after firing.
I carry some cartridges while loading from the flask just in case I need to load faster ifin the coyote are gettin my hound.

I usually go shootin and load with the flask. If the things are carried right and gotten to easy it's not too slow loadin with the flask. I learned to load standing and holding the gun a certain way. I have a cap box and flask holder of leather on my rigs belt and balls in the bottom of a lil curved bottom possibles pouch.
I flask the powder in...lay a lube pill on that and reach in a get six balls(takes a lil practice) seat those and hold the gun and the cap tin in one hand and use the other to get a cap and set it on the nipples. It's easier to hold a Colt and a cap tin then to hold a Remington and a cap tin in one hand.
I made some boxes from cardboard that was thin enough and stuck copies of the original boxes on them with the pictures copied to sticky back paper.
Then a friend sent me some he made. I got some lil boxes the  guy made that replicates the lil wood boxes some cartridges came in back in the day.Made of thin cardboard. A copy of the writing from an original made on sticky backed paper is stuck on to make it look cool. The open top box slides out from either side of the covering box. I have them on the fireplace mantle fer lookin at. Cartridges in them of course. The original pictures fromoriginal boxescan be had off the net somewhere. People sell them and nthe complete boxes too. Cool conversation pieces. Everyone I show mine to thunk theys good fer lookin at.

Hombre can g oto sites sellin jewlery boxes and buy some nice boxes also instead of makin them. My friend made a wood shape to bend the boxes ends over and such to make them all the same size and all. Made nice boxes.
It's nice to have the original printing on the boxes like back in the day. You may not want to spend all yer time makin cartridges and boxes but a few on the mantle make nice lookin things next to an old worn and antiqued cap&ball revolver. I had one I did people thought was an actual original. Beat up the wood and heated it to getnthose oldmlookin grain splits in it with rounded off corners and shrunken some and made then kinda black like wood gettin oil and grime and all on them fer decades. Like the old wood of old guns that gets black lookin. Browning solution not taken to fruition makes an old gun look antique. Sorta like a thin fine grained rust of an old gun.

Anywhooooo.......some cartridges in one of the original lookin boxes in the wood gun boxes with flask and mould and all makes fer somethin good fer lookin at and showin folks. Showin some"real" cartridges of paper to folks never seein them before is fun.

[Tsalagidave]

Tsalagidave

Cherokee?

Yep, Tribal# C00166189. Are you kin also?

-Dave

[Noz]

Nope, just recognized the name.  Somewhere back in the early 1800s we have the mandatory "Indian Princess" that shows up about the time the "Trail of Tears" went 20 miles or so south of the home place.

One branch of the family are the "Renos" that do live in Cherokee country. Look the part as well.

[Agostino]

FYI, Buffalo Arms sells 8 1/2" X 11" sheets of nitrated paper. I think the price is $28.00 for ten sheets.

[Tsalagidave]

Thanks Augustino.  $28 for 10 sheets is pretty steep.  I recommend getting a ream of onionskin paper and a bottle of saltpeter.  You can make as much as you want when you need it and will get more proverbial bang for your buck.  That being said, your suggestion is best if someone does not want to bother with the time and chemicals.  Thanks for the lead.  I wasn't aware anyone was making it for sale.

-Dave

[hellgate]

You can buy a lot of saltpeter as STUMP REMOVER and then make a saturated solution and dip the paper into it and let dry.
H

[Montana Slim]

I cut my papers FIRST, then nitrate & dry.
Nothing fancy in my procedure, I just spread them out on a plastic tray, wet them with solution & allow to air dry.


Slim

[River City John]

If I remember right, plain cigarette rolling papers are treated to burn also. Plus they have a gummed edge to go around the ball and then fill up the tube and twist into a tail, which you can fold over.


RCJ

[LonesomePigeon]

I tried paper cartridges made with  non-nitrated cigarette paper and glue stick with 15 grains of Goex 3F black powder in a .36 caliber Navy. The first 6 shots went off fine but left so much unburned paper that subsequent shots frequently misfired. I am wondering if nitrated paper and sodium silicate with a heavy 45 + grain charge in a Walker/Dragoon might have a better chance of completely burning all the paper. Has anyone tried paper cartridges in a big Walker or Dragoon?

As a side note, are paper cartidges historically correct for Walker/Dragoon pistols or did they just make them for Army and Navy pistols?

[rickk]

Not all brands of Stump Remover are Potassium Nitrate. "Grants" brand IS Potassium Nitrate. It goes for about 5 bucks a pound. I have sometimes found it at Home Depot and sometimes at a local ACE hardware store.

Some brands of Wood stove gasket cement at 100% sodium Silicate. If the liquid is clear and a bit thick, then it is Sodum Silicate. Once again, try Home Depot or Ace Hardware.

[Bunk Stagnerg]

I tried nitrating paper for cartridges using stump remover which was mostly potassium nitrate but the brand I got contained some kind of waxy scum that was almost impossible to remove and left the paper contaminated so much that glue would not stick. I used the rest of the stump remover as fertilizer and went another route.

I had the gun, a Pedersoli percussion Sharps, modified by Hahn Machine Works, and started using Hahn tubes and the paper cartridge problem was solved.

Perhaps not precisely period correct, but I have shot 30 rounds without cleaning or stopping to fiddle with the breech block and I prefer reliability to period correct any day.

Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk