High quality chainfire video

[Coffinmaker]

Prof Marvelous,

I feel your pain    The learning process for working on "things" is often frustrating .... and expensive ..... as re replace sacrificial practice
pieces of our projects.  I found the Tech Training I received to be invaluable, enabling me to turn perfectly good parts into junque just
lickety split.  But, practice made perfect.  With enough practice, I was able to turn out perfect Junque almost instantly 

I knew, when I was forced into retirement, I'd keep trying unless I sold of all my machine tools.  So, I did.  Then ........ TA DA, I discovered
the Dark Side and Cap Guns.  So, Now, I have reverted to hand work.  Fun, Slow, but still able to turn perfectly good parts into Junque
with alarming regularity.

I found, however, perfectly square, perfectly flat, superbly contoured, are fleeting goals.  If it looks good from 3 feet, it's (whatever) wonderful.  If it shoots inside a minute of beer can, marvelous.  If, it's both of those things, I'm in lust.  Endeavor to persevere!!  It also
helps if you've never met a barrel too short.  Gives ya lots to work with 

Coffinmaker

[Coffinmaker]

Heeeee's BACK!!  And Howdy

Well ....... a report.  Part good ......... part ....... not so good.   Way back in the Way Back, when this thread was just getting juicy, Sir Charles provided us wit a reference to so long forgotten/ignored information provided by some past Cap Gun shooters.  I followed all the
references and and devoured al the information.  Good Stuff.  Well ......... Maybe.

The part that got be real interested was beveling the chamber mouth to facilitate (make easier) loading.  Swage the ball into the chamber and increase the driving bad area.  Improve accuracy.  Hot diggity damn, but it all made perfect sense.  Whipped out my tools and started chamfering.  If it didn't move out of the way, I chamfered it.  Then ..... Along came MURPHY!!

Took three braces of guns to match to shoot "Josey Wales."  All guns were tastefully chamfered at the chamber mouth.  Loading was easier, the Balls swaged nicely into the chambers and I hit all the targets.  Freeking wonderful.  Why didn't I think of this sooner???

WELL:  There is a down side.  SPOOGE.  Putting a nice tasty bevel on the chamber mouth, provides a much larger pathway for blow-by to
find it's way onto the the Arbor, travel up the arbor into the arbor bore of the cylinder and into the arbor bore of the barrel lug.  Lots and lots of SPOOGE.  Had to wipe down the Arbor to get the cylinder off to re-load (cylinder loading stand) after fighting the barrel off (spooged up arbor bore) and then reload.

Bottom line.  Putting a nice bevel on the chamber mouth, makes it easier to load.  Swages the ball nicely.  Then really gums up the works.
I'm bummed.  I was about to start ordering replacement cylinders, then realized I could clean a lot of arbors for 400 bucks.  SO:

Iffin your tempted to try this, please remember your gonna git a ton of blow-by to the arbor.  Don't molest a lot of cylinders at once.  Try before you fly.  There is a trade-off.  It's a nuisance.

Coffinmaker

[will52100]

How much chamfer did you put on it?  Never had the results like your talking about, but all I've done is take juste the sharp edge off, not much else.  A buddy recently got a Uberti 1860 from Taylors and it didn't need any chamfer, already had it from the factory.

I did have issues with one of my Walkers when I first got it.  One would go several cylinder full's before fouling, one wouldn't go a single cylinder full before fouling to a stop.  After messing around with it for a while I noticed the flame cut on the arbor was about 3/32" back from the step down.  A little work with some needle files to bring the step flush with the cylinder face and it'll go as long as the other Walker now.  Check your arbor, there's a step down that's supposed to direct the gases away from the arbor and cylinder mouth, I've seen quite a few that are sticking past the cylinder face just a bit.  Most it's not a big issue, it really showed up on the Walker due to the powder capacity.

[Coffinmaker]

Hi will,
Thanks for the tip.  All the Arbors are as they should be.  No problems there.  The guns don't stop.  Doesn't even slow the cylinder rotation.  During firing on a stage, there is no problem. 
I shoot almost exclusively Snubbies.  I don't load "on the gun."  Have to pull the cylinders for the cylinder loading stand (Tower of Power)
every stage.  The increased krap on the Arbor makes pulling the barrel and the cylinder a groan.  The sponge lumps up in front of the cylinder and you have to wipe it away to pull the cylinder.  Never had that problem before.
In another answer, I obviously got a little over zealous with the bevel.  It's probably 1/64th of an inch deep.  Nice shiny ring visible at the chamber mouth.  Really facilitates loading, once the cylinder is off and on the stand.
I did/do have some spares, so returned sever guns to a flat faced chamber.  The others I'll replace as I go, two at a time.  What a groan.
Live and learn.  Some lessons get expensive.  Boo Hissssssss.

Coffinmaker

[will52100]

Huh!  Never had that issue, not sure how much I take off mine, 1/64"?  Probably a 1/16" bright ring.  Of course I load on the gun, but still don't have issue taking the barrel off for cleaning.  Most times I do have to use the loading leaver top give a little push to the cylinder face, but I have the same issue with several cartridge conversions where I have to use a pry bar to gently push the barrel off a bit.  Of course I have had to do that before chamfering as well.  Could it be your load or powder?

[Flint]

The Colt factory, for a time, chamfered cylinders, then stopped.  Either they saw no advantage, or (more likely) figured the time/cost of chamfering was not a benefit to the profit.

[will52100]

How much chamfering we talking about?  I know I said about a 1/16", but I just miked one and the chamfer bevel was rite at .020", or as best as I could measure, a lot less than a 1/16" I was thinking.  When I say chamfer the chambers, all I'm talking about is just barely breaking the sharp edge.  I've heard that some of the original Colts had tapered chambers, might have only been the 1860 though.

To me, a slightly chamfered chamber is a must, a sharp edge on the chamber mouth means the ball is getting shave to size or undersize of the chamber.  A slight chamfer means the ball is getting squeezed into the chamber and the chamber is sizing it.  What I figure is a slight chamfer increases the friction of the seated ball or bullet, makes a better seal against moister and chain fires.

[Coffinmaker]

Actually, I still think a chamfer that just "breaks the edge" is a good idea.  I feel, in my zeal, I just took the idea a bit too far.  When we
consider what Colt did in the past, we have to keep in mind, back in the day, Guns were not fired any where near what we do.  Most guns were fired less in their lifetime, than we do in a single season of CAS.  Reloading was also primarily done "on the gun." 

I have several OEM unmolested cylinders that show a very slight break of the edge from the factory.  They work just fine.  At the same time, I may well be making a mountain out of a mole hill.  Understanding, since I shoot Snubbies, I don't have a loading rammer to assist in removing the barrel between stages.  Wrestle it off by hand.  Before I added the bevel, the barrel and cylinder slid right off the Arbor and all the Arbor required between stages was a quick wipe and a drop of oil.

The amount of sponge on the Arbor isn't a deal breaker, I just found it to be a nuisance, adding an extra step between stages.  Call it an
annoyance.  I would just hate to advocate a modification and have someone following my lead be unhappy with the result.  I do feel loading was much easier and I shaved a minuscule ring off the Ball.  There is a larger "driving band" when inspecting a removed "dry ball"
than before.  The bevel does work and work well.  There is just an extra step.  It annoyed me.  Gun function was actually just fine.

At the same match, I made another discovery.  Winchester # 11 Caps SUCK with Slix nipples.  They do not seat tight enough and fragment at firing.  Wound up getting fragments down in the action, even with Cap Rakes.  AS you can guess, this particular match was not what I would describe a real fun.  Of course I was fighting with 5 guns shooting Josey Wales.  Before I replace ALL the cylinders, I am going to shoot a match with just two guns and see if I'm still real annoyed.  I'll also actually measure the depth of the bevel and compare it with the results Will has on his.  Curios are I

Coffinmaker

[Coffinmaker]

So ..... went down and measured the depth of the bevels.  First, the bevels I cut are about 45 degrees.  The actual depth of the bevel
ranges from .0020 to .0030 or from 1/32 to 1/32 +  Perhaps a little too deep.  I still plan to shoot em again before I panic and do something real expensive.  Let's be careful out there

Coffinmaker

[will52100]

I wouldn't worry too much about it, sounds like you might have went a hair further than I do, but shouldn't be a big issue.  Even with my converted 51's I have to use a screw driver or stick to wedge the barrels off.  With them clean it's still tough to pull the barrels off, so that's a tight arbor barrel fit, and a little fouling makes it worse.  I'd never really thought about pulling the barrels on stubbies.  Might try a coating of mobil 1 grease on the arbor to barrel joint, might work to keep it free, don't know.

[Coffinmaker]

Will,
You should be able to remove the barrels from the Arbor with just your hands.  If the Barrel to Arbor fit (depth) is correct, a tight fit is of no benefit and shouldn't actually be that tight.  You may want to consider dressing the end of the Arbor so it's a nice slip fit.  I have a custom tool for tight barrel removal.  Take the spring out of Clothes Pin.  Put the bevel side of the Clothes Pin legs together between the barrel and the cylinder face.  Tap em together.  Pops the barrel right off.

Coffinmaker

[will52100]

Thanks, but it's not that tight, if I put out, it'll pop off in my hand when it's clean, but have to put out a little more after firing.  Most times I use a screw driver and give the barrel a little nudge between the barrel/cylinder, doesn't take much.

[hellgate]

One thing you could try to soften the fouling is to put an over ball lube on. It is one more loading step but keeps the arbor fouling softer. A soft lube wad might also soften the fouling.

[Coffinmaker]

I actually consider an "over ball" glop of lube to be more of a nuisance than the increase in blow-by from the chamfer.

Long term, I "may" replace some of the chamfered cylinders.  Short term, I'll just include a extra "wipe rag" with my stuff and quietly whine to myself between stages.  Really, I can clean off a lot of Arbors for the cost of new cylinders.  Although, I do think most cylinders
can benefit from a very light "De-burring."  Plus, instead of a drop oil on the front of the Arbor, I may smear a little Mobile 1 grease.
(shameless plug for Mobil One).

Coffinmaker

[will52100]

Now I'm starting to understand your predicament.

If I'm only going to shoot one or two cylinder fulls, or am taking a cap gun for a woods walk I don't lube over the balls.  If I'm doing a lot of shooting, I lube over the balls to keep accuracy and function up.  I've tried felt wads, but they don't keep everything greasy enough for extended shooting.  I'm currently using Lee conicals and lubed up they do good, though if I'm doing  a lot of shooting I'll still put a little lube on top every so often to keep things running.

This is with real black powder, don't know how subs work.

[Coffinmaker]

Will,
I shoot 4 - 5 matches a month during the season.  We do close down during the winter.  But during the season I'm running 6 cylinders full for two guns every week.  Since I shoot Gunfighter, I can't afford ANY type of stoppage or hiccup.  Extra steps are a nuisance.  I will, however, just have to put up with the extra step.  Boo Hisssssssss.

Coffinmaker

[Bunk Stagnerg]

Here is a wonder land of information.
All my cap guns  have the sharp edge of the chamber mouth lust broken with a sharp beveling tool. I have pulled balls that have been seated and found a nice little belt around the ball with almost no chance of a chain fire... so far.
look this up

http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/Revolver.html

He also gave me good information on making my Smith carbine shoot like it should.
Respectfully submitted
Bunk

[will52100]

I did a test a while back, can't remember the specifics, so I might be off one or two cylinder fulls.  If I remember rite, on about cylinder full 4, that's all six chambers loaded, not five, the accuracy started going south.  Still good enough for CAS targets, but noticeably more open groups.  Somewhere around cylinder full number 6 the binding was bad enough I had to help the cylinder out on rotation.  Cleaning was a PITA, hard fouling in the barrel and cylinder face.  That's without lube. 

With lube over the balls I can go for over a hundred rounds and the accuracy stays up, though it does open up a bit over time, but not as bad as without, and clean up is a lot easier.  Messy, but they like lube and work and shoot well.  That's why I keep some paper towels and a little water with me to clean my hands.

I've tried wads, was under impressed.  The dry lubed do OK, but don't really help much with maintaining accuracy, and the ones I soaked down with lube had a tendency to contaminate the charges and make weak shots, especially when the guns heat up.  I'll stick with lube over the balls or with lubed conicals.

Other than fouling out without any lube, the only stoppages I had were the occasional cap fragment.  That's with Remington #11 caps and tresso nipples.