Stevens Favorite .32rf to .32-20?

[Chev. William]

I believe you may be right about the 'easy way' would have been to ream the chamber to .32 S&W Long; but how would I guarantee that a future user of this firearm would NOT chamber a full Maximum .32 S&W Long Load in it?  I feel the less dangerous alternative is conversion to .32 Long Colt as that cartridge is of limited Commercial factory load availability potentially forcing future users to hand load to feed it.

Along that line I loaded ten of the .32 Long Colt today with 2.2gr of BULLSEYE using CCI #450 SRM primers and the 85gr Lead Round nose Heeled bullets I received from Jack Harrison.  The cases were trimmed to .912" to .914" before loading and the loaded rounds came out 1.328" to 1.330" over all length.  I took them to my gunsmith so he may use them for testing my Stevens Favorite Action after repairs are complete.  This load calculates out as about 10,500psi and 1085fps form a 21.75" barrel.

I also took him ten rounds of CF equivalent of the .25 Stevens RF, a developmental design temporarily called ".250ALS" they were loaded with CCI #450 SRM primers, 2.5gr of BULLSEYE, and topped off with a Magtech 50gr FMJRN .251 Diameter bullet.  They come out looking like a scaled down 30 Carbine round.  this load calculates out to 10750psi and 1450fps out of the 21.75" barrel.

Additionally There are 5 sample substitute design .25 Stevens RF cartridges loaded with .25 Cal. Grade 3 Powder Tool Loads, and another of the Magtech bullets to a length compatible with the .25 Stevens Chamber, 1.125 case and 1.415 over all length, along with 5 that did not have bullets installed as my gunsmith thinks he has some .253" diameter 65gr Lead bullets in his home stocks.  No calculated pressure or velocity for these, but others have reported reasonable velocity and pressure effects from their use.

I am still looking for some Alliant 2400 powder to try in the .32 Long Colt rounds, but so far no luck at my local Reloading Store.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Hopefully sometime around next month he will have some good news about the Stevens Rifles for me.

[Adirondacker]

Speaking of doing things the "easy way," I just bought a Favorite in 22LR--first one I've owned in 30 yrs.  Wanted it, despite a pitted bore from black powder or early smokeless, because it's an early one, built before 1899, when steel butt-plates were replaced by the familiar hard-rubber ones.  Shoots about 3" at 25 yds, but surprisingly, I can hit a 12" steel plate at 100 yds EVERY time if hold it steady enough.  But holding it steady--THAT's the problem.  It's so light, it feels more like shooting a shoulder-stocked pistol than a real rifle.

[Chev. William]

Are you going to leave it as purchased or are you going to 'upgrade' it?

From my reading I believe it should be capable of better accuracy, possibly you can improve it with different ammunition?

Good on you for getting it "speaking" again.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Adirondacker]

Are you going to leave it as purchased or are you going to 'upgrade' it?

From my reading I believe it should be capable of better accuracy, possibly you can improve it with different ammunition?

Good on you for getting it "speaking" again.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

It was capable of much better accuracy BEFORE the bore was ruined by corrosive ammo, but not now.  Thought of having bore relined, but that's about $300 added to the $400 I paid for it, so don't think so.  Also, the difficulty of shooting, or rather, holding, such a feather-weight argues against it.  Anyway, plugging away at the various steel targets at my range (all installed by me) is really all I care to do with it, & it shoots well enough now to hit them.

[Adirondacker]

By the way, strange to think about, but this late '90s Favorite of mine is an authentic (late) Old West period gun--something Butch & the Kid might have carried in their saddle bags to pot small game when on the run.  Maybe a CAS match strictly for Favorites?

[Chev. William]

Yes, that has the sound  of some fun, but would drive up the prices for the Guns and the ammo something hard to stand.
I believe there might be some possibility if those in charge can figure out where to get ammo for the Other Stevens Favorite Calibers, such as 25 Stevens, both Long and Short, and the .32 RF, in all its iterations.

Yes we could convert all to CF so as to ease the ammo problems, and in CAS / NCOWS shooting, the loads would be within reason for the actions general strengths.

But would the Rules allow it?

Presently as I understand them, .22RF are limited to the Minors, and I have not read any discussion of .25 caliber or .32 caliber being generally allowed nor used in light rifles.

Have you read anything to the contrary?

Best Regards.
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Late PS: I picked up a one lb. canister of Goex FFFg Black Powder yesterday to try out when I get my Favorites back.
In the mean time I can start measuring case capacities to find out how much BP will fit in each size.  Chev, William

[Chev. William]

Over the weekend, I tried out the Black Powder to find the case capacity of some of my .25ACP lengthened cases with the following results:
The 1.055" nominal length .250ALR case holds 8.0 grains, NOT compressed, with some space left to start a bullet.
The 1.125" nominal length .250ALS case holds 9.0 grains, again not compressed, with space left to start a bullet.
The 1.250" nominal length .250ALRM case holds 10.0 grains, again not compressed, with space left to start a bullet.

From my reading I learned that the original loading for the .25 Stevens RF cartridge was between 10 and 11 grains of BP topped with a 67gr inside lube Lead Bullet and gave about 1180fps.

I believe that with compression of the load my .250ALS will hold 10 grains of BP but I doubt it could hold 11 grains due to the reduced net case volume between the RF and the CF cases.

After thinking over this information, I loaded 5 cases with 9.0 grains of fffg GOEX BP and topped it with a 50gr FMJRN "Magtech" bullet, then painted the bullet with some of my late wife's left over Translucent Red nail polish to both indicate the BP loading and to 'weather proofing' to the loaded rounds.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Today I received in the mail some new tooling for use with the .32 Long Colt / .32 Long RF cartridge(s):
A new Lee .30 Carbine Collette type Factory Crimp Die, and two Lee Push through Bullet Sizing dies in .308" and .314" diameters.

As an experiment, I set up the Factory Crimp Die in my press with a .25ACP shell holder in the Ram.  I set it to completely close the four cuts in the Collette plus a little 'overpressure'.  I then used a Magtech .25ACP cartridge(.608" case length) as a 'spacer pin' to lift a .32 Long Colt case into the Die.  The case was 'crimped' with the 'full overpressure' applied to the die to see where and how deep it would end up 'crimped'.  

This particular .32 Long Colt measures .9315" long and the crimp deepest point is about .768" to .770" up from the base. it is reduced from .316" diameter to between ..308" and .310" in a four lobed pattern, probably due to the four 'petal' design of the collette and its intended use on .30 Carbine rounds and NOT fully "Two Blocked" in that use.

I surmise that this would be a usable alternate means of crimping a Heeled bullet in the .32 Long Colt / .32 Long RF case.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Saturday I attended a Gun Show with an old friend, and bought a box of 50 "Peters 'Rustfree' 32 Long Colt" cartridges loaded with the 82gr Lead projectile, so are probably the later inside lube sub-caliber hollow base type.  Interestingly, the price was $40.00 for the box of cartridges.  It is shrink wrapped so I have not inspected the contained cartridges yet.  The round trip to pick up my friend, then to the Gun Show and return was 158 miles, quite a nice drive, even with the traffic on the home leg.

[Chev. William]

I now have received a purpose modified collet crimp die and adjustable shell holder fo ruse with .32 Long colt from "Old West Bullet Moulds" and it works Very Well.  This die/holder set is well made and came in a molded plastic die box that is very familiar.

I Definitely Recommend this die/holder set if you need to crimp .32 Long Colt cartridges.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I have been using my Vibratory Tumbler to clean fire residue off dies for Joe Mueller of Hollywood Engineering.  So far I have used up 12 lbs of Crushed Walnut Shell media and worn out one tumbler.  I have been using a bore brush in a drill motor to clean the 'crud' out of the die bores.   the present 'cold and rainy' spell has curtailed this outdoor activity for the moment with about 40 dies waiting for the 'bore brush' treatment and another about 100 on hand needing to be run through the tumbler yet in this batch.
This is only one batch in many that will be done as there is a large pile of uncleaned dies still at Hollywood Engineering's old shop waiting.  Joe has concentrated on the cleanup of the shop property and machines to get them to the point of inspection so he can get the "Red Tag" lifted and get into 'serious' rebuild work such as restoring power to his property, cut of at the time of the fire, and deciding how,or if, to proceed with the shop building rebuild.

Beyond the dies, there is his tooling to clean up so he will be busy for a period.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

End of 2013 update on my Projects:

1.  The .25 Stevens and  Lengthened .25ACP experiments are waiting for my Stevens Actions to be Inspected, upgraded in strength, with Barrels fitted and head space adjusted by my Gunsmith.  Perhaps The Coming January will bring good news on that front.   I have a Lothar Walther (LW) made .25ACP/6.35mm Browning Barrel Blank intending to use use it initially for a Test Barrel for these experiments.

2.  The .32 Long / .32 Long Colt project is still moving slowly, for the same delay as listed above.  I did purchase a 'used' Shelin Match Grade Stainless Steel Barrel Blank in .308, intending to initially be used for a Test Barrel for .32 Long Colt experiments.
At about 8 lbs and with the Stevens actions with stock weighing about 1-1/2 lbs, it will need a Bench Rest for stable firing.

3.  My Marlin Levermatic Conversion to .25ACP is on hold because the LW barrel blank will eventually be used on it.

4.  Tooling for the .250ALRM is nearly complete as I have ordered from PTG a Roughing Chamber Reamer to go with the Finished Chamber Reamer I already bought from them.   The Case Forming and Reloading tools have been gathered and the Case forming process is mostly developed.   I still need to come up with a source for 67 grain bullets these cartridges.

5.  Tooling for the .32 Long Colt Case forming and reloading has been gathered and is complete.  I also have alternate supplier(s) for already formed cases and for bullets.  Bullets in two designs, both of 90 grain weight have been located, so that part of the problem is solved for the moment.

6.  Spare Breech Blocks for use in converting the Stevens actions from RF to CF are in hand.  I am still looking for extractors to modify to fit the experimental cartridges.   I intend to have both RF and CF parts sets for each action so they may be switched back and forth during the Experiments.

May everyone have a very enjoyable coming New Year.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Time for another update on my Stevens Projects:

The two Stevens 1894 Actions are still in my Gunsmith's hands waiting for his time to work on them.

I have since bought A 1915 Modified Stevens Action with a enlarged Breech Block of .600" width.
And have increased my 'collection of used Stevens barrels.

I have bought a "Bubba'd" 1894 receiver that has had both tangs repaired and a clamp screw added to the tang ends.

I have bought two used Model 44 Receivers one is in relatively good condition and the other is somewhat "Bubba'd" in that it has a 'sighting groove' cut into the top of the Barrel socket bridge.  Also obtained are the internal parts for one '44' and one Butt Stock for the '44' action and two barrels for the '44's.

I have lately bought a pair of used Stevens receivers, one each of 1894 and 1915 series, which are waiting for the California hold time to expire.

Working with another 'collector' to document the internals fo the Stevens '44' action so replacements can be manufactured.  This is slow going as I am limited in the measuring tools available to measure the geometry of the parts.
The drawing are being entered into AutoCAD 2000 and transferred in R14 formats to the other person via emails.

Another project, now over two years in process, advanced slightly this last week as my gunsmith has Threaded the Breech end of a .45 Win Mag barrel and screwed it into my NOS Winchester .30 M1 Carbine Receiver.  This will eventually become a 26" Barreled Rifle, rather than a Carbine.  I have an old 'Fajen' "Manlischer" Monti Carlo Stock set aside for it.

Making reformed cases for either the .25 or the .32 projects have been on the 'back burner' while waiting for progress on my actions but this Easter Weekend i finished the last 35 cases of a lot of .32 R-P S&W Long and now have 90 ready for turning the displaced Brass roll off in front of the Rim.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[dangerranger]

I've been following this thread along. I'm still not convinced that My favorites action is up to any hot rodding, So I located a derelict #4 Remington rolling block receiver that needed tang repair and a hammer. I want to build it in a cal that I can still easily find brass. The barrel not being threaded I'm limited to fairly low powered pistol rounds. My grandfathers squirrel gun was a Roller converted to 25 auto. He said back in the day the 25 auto had a better bullet selection than 22 mag. I may duplicate his gun with it. I've got a barrel ordered for it but still looking for a good hammer. Ill post up pics as the parts show up. DR

[Chev. William]

I've been following this thread along. I'm still not convinced that My favorites action is up to any hot rodding, So I located a derelict #4 Remington rolling block receiver that needed tang repair and a hammer. I want to build it in a cal that I can still easily find brass. The barrel not being threaded I'm limited to fairly low powered pistol rounds. My grandfathers squirrel gun was a Roller converted to 25 auto. He said back in the day the 25 auto had a better bullet selection than 22 mag. I may duplicate his gun with it. I've got a barrel ordered for it but still looking for a good hammer. Ill post up pics as the parts show up. DR

Is that #4 RB a Take Down Model?
From Frank de Haas book, it looks like the 'Solid Frame' and 'Take Down' shared barrel dimensions, just the means of retention is different.  And From his drawings and descriptions I would presume that the Take down Screw is around a 1/4 inch diameter, which should retain the Barrel sufficiently to take the forces of a 25-10 Rf / .25 Stevens Long RF or a .32 Shot Cartridge.
From my research the .25ACP is Currently rated at 17,405psi (Piezo method) by CIP and is about the size of a .25 Stevens short.

I know that .25 rim fire cartridges are usually at Collector Prices.  You should definitely consider the .25ACP, and even a lengthened .25ACP diameters case (can be formed form .22 Hornet cases run through .25ACP dies all the way to the rim then turned to remove the displaced Brass roll in front of the rim and either leave the rim  at .350" (RF size) or turn it down to between .310" and .303" to match the .25ACP limits.

Pacific Tool and Gauge has my drawing for a .250ALRM chamber reamer that cuts one 1.250" deep that closely fits a .25ACP rim and cartridge in the back portion with a capability to take a 1.250" case length cartridge loaded with a .251" bullet.  I have on hand both roughing and Finishing Reamers for this cartridge and have cut one 'trial Dummy Chamber' for the .250ALRM and that is what I am basing my fit comments upon.  I will be fitting a Stevens 1894 or 1915 Favorite action to take the Center fire cartridge for my testing fo a range of cartridge lengths from teh .610" of the ACP up to the 1.250" of the ALRM. 

Muzzle Velocities of 1124fps and below are 'subsonic and should give very acceptable accuracies up to 200 yards if the 'high arc trajectory' of such subsonic round generate.  The pressure limits of 17,405psi would allow soem supersonic loadings, estimated to be around 1300 to 500fps wiht a suitable powder and charge choice with the 51 grain bullets commercially available at this time.
A better choice to try would be a 65 to 69 grain Lead bullet, but that would require a custom mold and casting the bullets, something I am not set up to do.

If you only want the .25ACP case size, then PTG will make you a 'Match Grade' chamber reamer that will give very good use in a Single Shot Rifle. 

If you are buying a Barrel Blank, I presume it is a Lothar Walther .25ACP/6.35mm Browning Blank and will come in at 23.4" long, which is the correct Bore and Groove diameters for the .25ACP, and allows a finished barrel in Rifle length.  The C-M one I have slugs quite uniform from end to end and is at nominal published dimensions.

Good Luck with your reconstruction project and please post progress reports.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[ndnchf]

The #4 takedown system is weak.  They work loose easily because the soft barrel steel is often deformed by the harder takedown pin, and the barrel shank wears from repeated removal.  I have two takedown #4 RRBs and see this frequently.  My .32 cal rifle I converted to centerfire and soldered the barrel into the receiver with Brownell's Force 44 solder.  I did this over 20 years ago and it is sufficiently strong to use with .32 Long Colt ammo. 

I don't have a link, but not too long ago I came across a gunsmith's website who converts #4 takedown rifles to threaded solid frame.  That seems like a good idea if you care going to build a rifle with a new barrel.  One other caution, the hammer and block pivots on small screws, not heavy pins.  They are another weak link.  You might consider having new screws made out of a modern stronger alloy steel.  Maybe the screws from Kenn Womack are stronger?

I really like the little #4s and shoot mine often, but they do not bear hotrodding well.  So long as you keep within their design limitations, they can provide many years of good service.   

[Chev. William]

I temporarily received one of my strengthened 1894 Stevens Favorite actions back from my gunsmith (after paying $150.00 for the labor so far) to try out with some of my 'replacement' .25 Stevens cartridges.  I found that the firing pin  had too much tip extension and too much travel in the Breech Block; also that the Stevens Favorite was designed without a retraction spring.  The pin tip 'Snaged' on the cartridge rims if the BB was closed when the barrel is pointed down and fouled the hammer if the barrel is pointed up.  I also found that the original Stevens Chambers in my barrels are all worn conical in the rim rebate, so different diameter rim set at different depths, case rear face to Breech face.  I also found the extractor was cut with too thick a section, front to rear, so it 'camed' the cartridge body up and the rim disengaged from the extractor part way out.

Firing found the .25 RF positioned pin striking the rim from the bottom side so it took two strikes to fire a .22 RF blank in any carrier design I tried;but .27 RF Blanks did fire with a single trigger pull.

I returned the Action to my Gunsmith along with two .25Stevens barrels, two more Breech blocks, and an additional lever to have him:
1. Correct the .25 Stevens firing pin problems.
2. Make up a .22RF Breech block-Link-Lever set to work with the revised .25 extractor in my action.
3. Make up a CF Breech Block so I can try some of my CF Cartridge Designs later.
4. adjust the Rim rebates and head spaces to work with both the original .25 Stevens RF cartridges and the smaller .25 RF Blank Rims.

Since then I have been working on a 'Second Generation' design of the tubing style blank adapter.  I find that I can get about 33 pieces of 9/32"x.014"Wall tubing 1.125" long out of a 36" piece to the Hobby Brass tube.  Then square the ends, run them full length through my .25ACP Carbide Sizing Die, chamfer the inside diameter and press in a .25 Cal PTL Blank then trim them to a final 'Case Length" of 1.118" and seat a 51 grain or 63 grain bullet over the 'charge' (the PTL Blank has both Primer and Propellant in it). these I have checked in a 'dummy Chamber' and in a .25 Stevens Barrel and do seat with the rim and rebate in contact.

Both the .25 and .27 caliber blanks measure the same rim thickness so that makes head spacing a little easier.  The .25 Stevens Rims are .333" diameter and .050" thick; the .25 Blanks rims are .296" diameter and .040" thick; the Stevens Rim rebates measure about .350" diameter and seem to be cut for the .050" thick rim originally.

As I cut my .25 resized 'Hornet' Adapter cases and .32 Adapter cases so the blank rim is 'flush' with the rear face of the case, they should work with the .22 breech Block, just different extractors.

I will be using my CF Breech Block with at least three different extractors, .25ACP; .25 Stevens CF; and .32 Long Colt.
I will not know for sure if the rim edge notch is needed until I get the action and Breech Block sets back from the Gunsmith again.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

All The way to November 2015 with little o rno Progress on my Projects at my Gunsmith's as he has had several 'Interruptions' through the Year: His Wife died; he had cataract surgery; he has had several Movie work Calls, some out of State.  
Maybe more good fortune will come both our ways in the coming year.

Best Regards,
Chev. William