Marble tang sight question

[M113A3]

I found an article about this topic but was a bit confused by this image.



You can see both the buckhorn and the tang sight installed. I have read you need to remove the buckhorn yet I have seen other photos that appear to keep both as in this one which is credited to Marble Arms.

Is this an either or proposition if so what does the sight picture look like?

Here is the article: http://www.chuckhawks.com/marbles_tang_sight.htm

Cheers!

[Wes Tancred]

In the Victorian era, it was usual for the rear barrel sight to be left in place when a tang sight was installed. The barrel sight was used for fast or close range work, and the tang sight for precise shooting at longer ranges. Many commercial rifles came standard with all three sights installed (Stevens target rifles for example).

Toward the end of the 19th century, some expert riflemen, especially those who were middle-aged, used tang sights exclusively, and removed the rear barrel sights, sometimes replacing them with filler blocks. It became somewhat popular to order rifles without a rear barrel dovetail, and this could be seen as a badge of a "serious" rifleman. This was most common on single-shot rifles, which by the end of the century were the rifles of experts and target shooters.

The most typical set-up for a Winchester 1873 would be for both the rear barrel sight and the tang sight to be installed simultaneously. This requires that all three sights be aligned. Generally, the front sight is first centred, and the tang sight—which usually had limited adjustability for windage (sometimes requiring shimming)—is adjusted to get on target, adjusting the front sight also, if necessary. Then, the rear barrel sight is lined up so that its notch frames the front sight when viewed through the tang sight.

It is unfortunate that replicas of the best original tang sights—the ladder style—for Winchester rifles are no longer manufactured, now that the Axtell Rifle Company are out of business. Sights like the Lyman and Marbles were originally devised for hunting, lacking the stiffness and precision necessary for target shooting. To-day, perhaps the best choice would be a tang sight from Montana Vintage Arms. The ladders are Sharps style, but overall the sights are very similar to original Winchester sights, and of high quality.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I have been a peep sight fan for almost 60 years. The first thing I did when I bought my first singleshot .22 was to have a 5D sight mounted on it. I was 13, the rifle was $13 and the sight was $5. I found i was able to take ground squirrels much farther out than with open sights.

All my CAS leverguns have lyman #2 sights, except my original '73 that has an original Ideal sight. I have done various things to the mounting. Mostly I have tried to find a folding backsight, but just as often I remove it and plug the slot. On my Browning '86 SRC, I had a taller front sight made so I could drop the backsight so it wouldn't interfere with the tang sight. In retrospect, the taller front blade was not really required. As said above, set the barrel mounted backsight for snap shooting and the tang sight for about 2/3 of your "point-blank range". With BP level velocities there won't be interference.

For competition, I remove the screw in sight insert and use the "ghost ring". I can even find moving targets amidst the powder smoke! Shoot with both eyes wide open and you are as fast as anyone.

Oh! Forgot to flip the sight up when staging? NBD, just flip it up with your shooting hand thumb. When the sight is up it does not interfere with the shooting hand, or at least I haven't noticed it.

For carbines with fixed frontsights, I make my own tang sight shims from pistol cartridge brass. Cut a slice of the case and flatten, then drill for the tang screw. It is slightly tapered in thickness, and by turning the shim carefully it tips the staff over enough to bring it to center. I recently acquired a Marbles from Gabriel Law, and it now lives on the Browning .45-70 SRC.

[M113A3]

Thanks gentlemen for the history lesson and the insight of experience.  I guess it just would take some time to use the aperture sight picture as seen through the buckhorn.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Thanks gentlemen for the history lesson and the insight of experience.  I guess it just would take some time to use the aperture sight picture as seen through the buckhorn.

In most cases the barrel mounted sight, if on its lowest, can be ignored by the eye.

The eye seeks the best view, and the most light goes through the center of the aperture. Mount the gun with both eyes open, then paste the front post on the target an' let 'er rip. It will be slow if you concentrate on "finding center" or trying to resolve the backsight, so let your eyes do it by their own self. Of course, practice a bit before going public with your new skills.

The biggest advantage of peep sights, especially for 'Ol eyes, is that there is one less focal plane to try to focus on.

Factoid; In Europe, peep sights are called "diopter" sights.

[M113A3]

Thank you Sir!

[Pettifogger]

What are you going to use the tang sight for?  If you are hunting or target shooting it is useful.  For SASS style competition it is of no utility.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Pettifogger; I don't want to start a Ping match, but absolute statements beg to be challenged. I have used the peep sight for almost 60 years and find it faster than I can lever in the next round. Just paste the front sight on the target & let 'er rip! Now that my far sightednes prevails, I favour the tang sight even more.

Your opinion is shared by many, even most, but I feel it is based on unfamiliarity.

[Pettifogger]

Not really.  I've used them and seen a lot of people using them.  The simple fact is that at SASS rifle ranges the tang sight is completely unneeded and actually slows you down.  NO top shooter uses them.  I know someone's brother-in-law just came in 18th out of 20 at the Iowa quarter sectional using a tang sight.  However, the bottom line is NO top shooter uses them for SASS.  For shooting at longer ranges they are great.  For the extremely short distances at SASS matches the fraction of a second it takes to locate the tang sight is a match loser.  Yes, once your eye is behind it, it can be fast.  Just go to any match and see what the winners are using.  I see you are an NCOWS shooter.  Your stages may be at longer ranges, but at most SASS matches even the rifle targets are only around ten yards.

[Cliff Fendley]

Not really.  I've used them and seen a lot of people using them.  The simple fact is that at SASS rifle ranges the tang sight is completely unneeded and actually slows you down.  NO top shooter uses them.  I know someone's brother-in-law just came in 18th out of 20 at the Iowa quarter sectional using a tang sight.  However, the bottom line is NO top shooter uses them for SASS.  For shooting at longer ranges they are great.  For the extremely short distances at SASS matches the fraction of a second it takes to locate the tang sight is a match loser.  Yes, once your eye is behind it, it can be fast.  Just go to any match and see what the winners are using.  I see you are an NCOWS shooter.  Your stages may be at longer ranges, but at most SASS matches even the rifle targets are only around ten yards.

I know some shooters that score very well in NCOWS using them. Keep in mind most of the pistol targets are farther (sometimes twice as far) as SASS rifle targets and usually much smaller.

At our local NCOWS the rifle targets are usually closer to 35 yards and about half the size I see at SASS ranges.

With a 10 second penalty for a miss it pays to aim and that fraction of a second is nothing. I've actually thought about trying it myself.