Black Powder Measure Grains Volume Inconsistencies

[w44wcf]

Guys,
Thank you for the added discussion and  information.  As the old saying goes...... "There is more than one way to skin a cat".

Back in the days of yore, there were a number of black powder manufacturers in the U.S. ...... Laflin & Rand, American Mills, E.I. DuPont, Hazard, Oriental Mills, Austin, plus a few other smaller co's.  Lots of competition, which likely made each of them strive to make a better product.

The Ideal (now Lyman) measure came into being in the late 1800's and obviously was regulated to dispense the actual grains in weight of those early powders. Thus, Swiss powder which has been manufactured since the early 1800's is dispensed in the same actual weight that the Ideal measure indicates.

B&M came along later and was likely regulated to dispense the same weight per volume as the Ideal measure.  And then later on,  the Ideal was used to regulate the "Traditions" measure.

Goex powder which is a product of the mid 1900's was the powder used to regulate the Thompson, CVA, & Lee measuring scoops.

As some of you & I have indicated,  it matters not since our individual applications typically come down to the cases and bullets we are using and the amount of powder required to fill the powder space and allow for a bit of compression.

Anyway, interesting history.

w44wcf

[Coffinmaker]

I think it's incredibly interesting when fellow shooters take the time to research things that few, if any of today's shooters even think about.
w44wcf, John Boy, and a couple of others (I'll forget somebody) make the effort to dig up some really incredible information. 

I personally haven't been a real "long term" shooter on the dark side.  Shot Frontier Cartridge off and on for years, but other than concerning myself with ignition (Mag Primers), Just didn't think much about the little points of BP and Subs.  Honestly, I still don't.
Well, not that much.  I've kept it simple.  I've kept it easy.  I'm lazy.  I like to shoot a lot, but I don't like to have to think a lot.  Just
go do it.

My primary concern when I started dabbling on the Dark Side, was maintenance.  Like others, I was subject to a lot of "horror" stories about rust and corrosion (Not necessarily the same) and had always, always been cautioned about keeping one's weapon DRY.  Dunk it in a bucket of Hot, Sudsy Water??  Horrors.  Then I learned.

Unfortunately, there hasn't been lots of discussion about the vagrancies of the different Subs.  Some, but not enough common knowledge.
Just an example, Common Knowledge:  BP is corrosive.  Nope.  Old wives tale.  It is hygroscopic.  BP fouling will trap moisture next to the steel.  That MOISTURE causes rust.  In a dry clime, or reasonably dry, cleaning immediately after shooting BP is not necessarily an issue.  Just don't put it off forever.  Subs are not a corrosive as BP.  WRONG.  Subs are mostly corrosive (not necessarily rust) in and of themselves.  Don't need moisture.  Clean within a day or two.  Nice feature, APP requires no special lube, or for that matter, any lube (bullet).  For a lazy guy like me, PERFECT.

I never really knew of the vast differences in BP.  Beyond granular size differences, ignorant.  Then a really KOOL effort like this thread from w44wcf comes along and I/we can actually learn something. 

So,  THANKS bub.  I for one, really appreciate your efforts.  Now, If I could just dig up a couple thousand rounds of original 44 Henry Flat ammunition, to go with the graduations on a Henry ladder sight .........................

Coffinmaker 

[Dick Dastardly]

Black Powder, however measured, metered or weighed is a very fine performing propellant.  Varying amounts of attention to detail can lead to varying results down range.  For average SASS main matches you won't see a lot of difference if you get a mite slack in your order of fussiness.  Now, start reaching out beyond 100 yards and you need to get more fussy to stay in the game.  And, let's face it, it IS a game.  So, as range increases your need to eliminate variables increases.  Read some good books, load some ammo and come to some 'Long Range' matches.  Shoot some, take notes, make some quintessences and ENJOY the sport.  Soon enough you will learn exactly how you must meter, weigh, measure your chosen powder.  The One True Powder.  Holy Black.

DD-MDA

[Ranch 13]

I don't think that Swiss is anything that even crossed Ideals mind at the time. At least they don't mention it, they do mention to use Hazard's Kentucky rifle powder, American mills new rifle powder, and if the load was to be compressed to use DuPonts powder as it is the United States Standard. The also recommend using Hazard's Electric powder in the wcf cartridges... Then on the next page they go on to tell about how a powder measure set to 100 grs may only throw 95 grs of another brand of powder... So I'm thinking their powder measure was regulated for DuPont 1f, or Hazard Kentucky rifle powder...

[john boy]

When I was heavy into muzzleloading, I bought a Thompson Center Arms U-View Powder Measure.  It's the only one I own and use it for all the density testing of various BP brands & grains.  Fill it to the 100 mark - settle the powder and then scale weigh it.  I have found this measure to be accurate because the density variances for different brands always are uniform, ie Goex lighter and Swiss heavier

[w44wcf]

Coffinmaker,
Thank you for the kind words.  Ironically, history was my absolute worst subject in school but I have come to really appreciate the history of the guns and ammunition used by those that have gone before us.

My goal has been to recreate b.p. ammunition specifically in the .44-40 that is the ballistic equal of what Winchester & U.M.C.  offered back in the day.  That means b.p. cartridges generating an honest 1,300 - 1,340 f.p.s. and for the special U.M.C. 28 gr. load, cartridges generation 1,125-1,150 f.p.s. which is the equivalent of the original Henry cartridge.

Perhaps a recreation of the 28 gr load (28 grs by weight FFFG + filler or a card wad) would help you with your sight references.

Fun, Fun, Fun.  

DD,
Well said!

Don,
I too doubt that Swiss was used by Ideal to calibrate their measure.  I did find it interesting that it does weigh according to the measure settings.

John,
Thank you for the info.

w44wcf

[Ranch 13]

John something else you may find interesting about the powders. At the 1879 fall Creedmoor match of the 34 shooters, only 1 shot Curtis and Harvey, he was in 33rd place. The rest shot either L&R #5 or #6, or Hazard's 1f. About half weighed their charges the others measured.

[w44wcf]

Don,
Thank you for the info. Interesting history!
Reminds me of the saying "Everything old is new again."

w44wcf