if asking for permission to join, will need to restore my Krag yes?

[Charles Isaac]

Oh, I like the .223 more and more as I age and get weaker-it's so easy to shoot!


Another one of the great things about the GAF is that rules are immediately changed to accommodate emerging awareness of historical fact. For many organization,  it may take years-or never.

The rules regarding the Marines historic use of the M1888 Commission Rifle is a fine example of the level of integrity present in the GAF!


And here is the period photo of US Marines armed with M1888 Commission Rifles-

[Niederlander]

Outstanding!  Nothing like photographic proof!

[pony express]

While that photo doesn't settle whether Hanyang '88s had barrel jackets, it does show that the ones the Marines appropriated had them, whether they were purchased ones or locally produced.

[River City John]

Firing a salute for a burial at sea?


RCJ

[Niederlander]

I would guess the ones the "Misguided Children" used were German produced, but I could be wrong.  When were the Chinese ones produced?

[Drydock]

Chinese production we think began in 1895.

[Niederlander]

Okay, I did some online research.  According to the site I found (randomrocker.co.uk), the Chinese began building exact copies, with the barrel jacket, in 1894.  In 1904 they ditched the barrel jacket for a stepped barrel, and in 1910 the rear sight was changed the Kar98 standard.  Incidentally, they also said the '88 was the main Chinese battle rifle through World War 2.  Evidently it was a pretty darn serviceable rifle!

Of course, this all HAS to be true, since it's on the web.  Right?  Right?!!

[Drydock]

Thats the standard history.  There has been some argument on gunboards about the jackets, that by the mid 1890s most had realized they were a mistake, why would the Chinese spend the money, no examples extant with jackets, etc.  But the current accepted history still holds to the 1904 date.

[Niederlander]

That all makes sense to me, but I could certainly see the Chinese sticking with the barrel jacket for a while.  When did the Germans go away from it, if ever?  My guess would be that it never came up, since Mauser was already developing the next generations (1891, 1893, 1895, and of course the 1898!)

[pony express]

German '88s all had the jacket as produced, many of them went to Turkey after WW1, and in the '30s, most were rebuilt with no jackets. Turk rebuilds look like a '98 Mauser stock and barrel with a GEW88 action. Only Hanyangs I have seen had no jacket, but then the early ones may have been rebuilt, or just wore out and used up. (or "requisitioned" by the USMC.....)

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

The Turkish rebuild program began in 1935 and lasted into the early 40's.

[sail32]

My copy of " Guns of the World "by Bonanza Books, on page 155 shows a picture of a Chinese-made "Hanyang" rifle in 8x57mm with a Japanese-type rear sight and hand guard and no barrel jacket.

I wounder if the Marine picture may be related to the 1890 rifle trials.

The 1890 Trials
Magazine Guns Presented to the Board Convened
at New York, December 16, 1890, and
Continued Until July I, 1892

http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/United%20States%20Rifles/1871%20ordnance%20trial%20rifles/1890%20Trials.html

[Drydock]

No, that picture is well documented, was taken aboard ship in 1901, involving marines from the China Relief Expedition.

[pony express]

Funny thing-one of those Marines showed up at out cowboy shoot today, about everything he has was "unofficially requisitioned" Blue Army shirt, must have worn out his Marine issue one. And he had a Commision rifle, must have picked it up from that Chinese Arsenal. And I don't know where he found it, but he had an 1892 French Ordinance revolver! But by the fourth stage, word had gotten out that the General was going to be in the area, and nobody better be carrying any of that foreign stuff they had stolen acquired, so he found a Krag and a Colt.