The USFA Artillery Model? And other weird USFA stuff :)

yahoody · April 10, 2015, 02:03:23 PM

Some info here from 14 months ago...

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=50360.0

Quote from: what would you say on February 02, 2014, 11:40:56 PM
By sheer chance, I stumbled across one of these NFM serialized artillery guns at the local gun shop used, and bought it before I knew much about USFA. It is a copy of the "San Juan " colt now on display at the national Firearms Museum. As previously stated in posts, the serial numbers on the gun are mismatched on purpose as the original Colts were that went back to the factory and converted to the artillery length barrels and refurbed....and parts were mismatched with disregard for matching the serialized parts to its original gun. Anyway, the USFA copy is very limited in the production number. And of course, Gary is correct in that the were shipped to Cherry's from the factory to be sold. I acquired mine at a bargain price compared to the only other two that I've seen and sold on Gunbroker for a healthy sum of around $1700-1800 if memory serves.

While two of the bigger recent collectors of USFA guns are wrangling over a pair of Prewars on the block this one snuck by. "What Would" has a close copy from the Spanish -American War era already so he likely wasn't interested but I'd bet he knew what it was.

I had seen this particular gun showcased else where previous (Colt Forum maybe). If anyone knows where that thread is located let me know will you, as I have yet to find it again. Anyway a USFA duplicate of an actual Custer Artillery, number for number from the original. A project Doug Donnelly took personal interest in with the original owner/buyer. A Custer gun with a custom Serial number. May be Gary can shed some light on that process if he has time.

Gary had said earlier:

QuoteUSFA never did a Custer with a special serial number. "Special" numbers within the Ainsworth range could be ordered. Perhaps the most unusual would be a Custer with 1876 serial number.

and more...

After a certain date, all the Inspector Series guns were built on (or supposed to be built on) the Old Armory Original frames. Basically a standard size USFA frame with a smaller cylinder window to accommodate a Colt sized cylinder. Not to many OAO frames were made so that in itself is a rarity for a USFA collector.

more...
The Custer Battlefield/Ainsworth run started in the 6000's though there some produced to replicate original guns that a customer had in his posession. 1876 went to a gun writer and I believe was the subject of an article.

I really liked the idea behind this gun. USFA late model 100% USA guns, built better than the originals that were almost prefect duplicates of the 1st Gen. Colt guns. Wish I had the money and foresight to have done a few myself. But for me...this one gun represents everything USFA was and could have been. Knowing (hope that is the fact anyway) that there is only one in this configuration makes it even better. Anyone care to guess what this one is worth in today's collector's market?

yahoody · April 10, 2015, 03:55:56 PM

Sold a Rodeo II with true ivory yesterday for $2750.

IIs Seemingly hard to find NIB these days. But this one? About as rare as Phillips nickel pair of US marked guns I suspect. As in one of a kind..

Capt. John Fitzgerald · April 10, 2015, 06:22:27 PM

If memory serves, that Ainsworth, with the Custer "1876" serial number, belongs to well known gun writer Phil Spangenberger. I seem to recall reading an article he wrote about that particular gun.

Pangaea · April 10, 2015, 07:42:33 PM

I saw this gun earlier today. Due to my ignorance, it went right by me. Wish I was as knowledgeable as all of you are. Shooting from the hip every time.

Glad that Michael and I can entertain you Captain.

Philip

Capt. John Fitzgerald · April 10, 2015, 09:25:36 PM

Believe me, Philip, I am VERY glad that you are here to entertain me! I have been on this board from the beginning and of late (since the demise of the USFA SAA's) things have slowed down a bit. Thanks to you, What Would You Say & Yahoody, there is new life on this board. Don't think that I don't appreciate your contributions.

GaryG · April 10, 2015, 11:05:17 PM

1876 initially went to Mike Venterino. I believe he sold it to a retired police officer. My info is about 5 years out of date.

yahoody · April 10, 2015, 11:17:23 PM

Here is Mike Venturino's Custer...

and the article:

http://americanhandgunner.com/web-extra-usfa-sixguns/

Gary? So many questions for you :-) Any idea how many original Colts' were copied by USFA? Any Artillery besides this one? Any other 7.5"? Or how many of the Custer guns went out with a "new" finish? Were detailed records actually kept on how the USFA guns were built via serial number?

I was talking with the original owner today who owns the Artillery that was copied and pictured here number for number. He told me Doug Donnelly labeled this one a "Custer Model" but in fact the frame's serial number is well out side the range of Custer guns. How ever the trigger guard and back strap which match for numbers are from a Custer serial numbered gun.

and I think this might be the Artillery that was copied for What's gun...

GaryG · April 11, 2015, 11:55:52 AM

Dane,
One question will probably lead to another. Let's just talk. I' m available most any time during the day.
Gary

yahoody · April 12, 2015, 12:00:52 AM

Thanks Will. Gene and I had a great conversation about the gun today. Fun since I paid for it late in the week

Better late than never I always say!

Anyway Gene (original owner) has the original Colt that was mimicked by USFA, number for number. letter for letter. It is an original Calvary 7.5" that went to the 4th IIRC, then later back to Springfield Armory chopped it and added a trigger guard and back strap from a legit Custer gun issued to the 7th, and then reissued it as a 5.5" that went to San Juan Hill. So really cool history that has been well documented on the original. Gene's and D. Donnelly's idea was to duplicate the original Colt down to every detail but the "Colt's" name. And better yet as it originally left the rebuild at Springfield Armory.

I am pretty stoked on the gun. Box label says "Custer Battlefield, CC-AB, 5.5, One piece wood." Pretty much completes my 5.5" collection except for that bright nickel version I've seen "floating around in cyber space"

Really curious now to see if Gary knows or can guess how many Colt's were actually copied from the original guns. This turned into a 6 or 7 month project for Gene. I feel pretty lucky to tag it. I'll eventually do a full write up on this gun when I get all the documentation (both from the original gun and the USFA version) and actual gun in hand.

The more I look into USFA guns the more I realize just how many ONE OFF projects USFA did. Man, was there a faster way to loose money for a production gun company!

Have to wonder how many USFA guns carry the Davis F Clarke inspector's cartouche?

"In 1898, 14,900 of the SAA revolvers were altered the same way by the Springfield Armory. The original records of the War Department do refer to these revolvers with the shortened barrel as the "Altered Revolver". The name "Artillery" is actually a misnomer, maybe because the Light Artillery happened to be the first units to be armed with the altered revolver.

The Artillery Single Actions were issued to the Infantry, the Light Artillery, the Volunteer Cavalry and other troops because the standard issue .38 caliber Colt M 1892 double-action revolver was lacking stopping-power. For that reason, the .45 Artillery SAA Revolvers were used successfully by front troops in the Spanish-American War and the Philippine-American War. Theodore Roosevelt's Rough Riders charged up San Juan Hill wielding the .45 caliber Artillery Model.

The Artillery Model usually had mixed numbers. It can be identified by the U.S. on the frame, the inspector's stamps on different parts (such as a tiny A for Orville W. Ainsworth, DFC, HN, RAC for later inspectors and K for replacement parts) ."

yahoody · April 12, 2015, 01:03:39 AM

Thanks much. Things changed for us dramatically in late 2011. Part of that journey was selling off my 1st collection of USFA guns..7 of them. 5 in consecutive serial numbers. Life is better now than we could have ever expected. And I have replaced that early USFA collection. Sell low & buy high is my motto! One of the fun things in life searching out these guns and owning them short term (when they last a hundred years or more) in the grand scheme of things. Took me a while (and buying everything else I wanted first) to warm up to Custer Battlefield, the Ainsworth or a Neddleton.

These days those three USFA Models are so few and far between I'll likely not own one. But if any one has a spare they'd like to get rid of let me know will ya

hanover67 · April 12, 2015, 12:03:09 PM

I don't know what proportion of USFA's ouput was custom, or special order, but mine is. I originally ordered a Rodeo II, 4 3/4" in .44 Special. I had to pay an extra $100 for the caliber because .44 Special was not normally available in that model. A while later my dealer told me that USFA had discontinued the Rodeo II because their nickel plating operation was not working properly. Then, I was told that USFA did not have any .44 caliber barrels. Finally I got a call that they were ready to ship my gun, a single action, 5 1/2" blued and CC's frame model, not what I wanted or even close to my original order. I told my gun dealer to stop the shipment, and I then got a call from somebody at the factory, probably Gary, asking me what I did want. I then re-orderd a 4 3/4" all-blued .44 Special Single action with the barrel roll-marked "S&W Special, Russian, .44" and that is exactly what I received a couple of months later in 2009, a year and 3 months after my original order.

I originally ordered a Rodeo II because I wanted a "working gun" that I didn't have to baby as far as its appearance was concerned, and was in my favorite caliber and barrel length. Plus, USFA was reputed to be as of high quality as a Colt, and about half the price. I didn't know anything about the issues at USFA at the time. My only complaint about the gun I got is that it shoots to the left. Also, I own a Smith & Wesson Model 10 that I have sent to the factory for repairs. I appreciate S & W's excellent customer service, and I miss having the availability of that kind of customer support from the now-departed USFA. I do not have any good revolver gunsmiths in my area.

yahoody · April 12, 2015, 01:04:35 PM

Hanover. Good story. Thanks for adding it. I too wish USFA /Warranty shop was still available.

By the look of it the Rodeo IIs are few and far between. I've seen very few samples of the 4 /34" or the 5 1/2" guns show up on the auction sites and all those in 45. Even fewer...(not sure I have seen one) with the Russian/Special roll marks.

But glad you did get a gun!

Here are three of the original version you ordered. The factory TruIvory version sold last week. And a pair with consecutive #s with real ivory that went to a collection yesterday.

Sadly what would have been perfect "work" guns are now going to be crowned safe queens by collectors at 2 and 3x times (today's prices) their original prices which was $825. And I would expect them to go higher yet just because there were so few.

And a 5.5" that is on GB now.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=477342313

yahoody · April 12, 2015, 03:32:49 PM

Found this from Kopec today while looking for Colt info..

"This is a "Custer Era" Colt U.S. Cavalry, Single Action Army revolver number 8462. It was manufactured on about March 1, 1874 as part of the U.S. Army's First Purchase Contract for 8000 Colts. ( sn 177 - sn 8652 ) This revolver was part of "lot 8" received at Springfield Armory on March 18, 1874. ( sn 7528 - sn 8652 )

This revolver served in the Indian Wars and perhaps at some time in the 7th Cavalry. After the initial lot of 755 revolvers was issued to the 7th Cavalry in late June of 1874, a rearmament of 104 guns was sent to the 7th Cavalry's Co. K by year end 1874, with 20 more going to the 7th in 1875. Historians and Collectors agree that all Colt U.S. Cavalry revolvers shipped as part of that First U.S. Army Contract were shipped more than 2 years before Custer's Historic Battle on June 25, 1876, and any one of them may well have been with the 7th U.S. Cavalry during the battle at Little Big Horn."

Number on my new USFA gun is #8166.

And this, "the National Archives letters that tell the story of serial number 8842 and 19 other colts that were stolen by 1st Sgt Richard Graham Co. "C" 8th Cavalry on June 19, 1876 by his desertion" and I am still looking

I'll post more as I find it.

RVK · April 15, 2015, 02:33:26 PM

Reply to Yahoody on April 12.
"These days those three USFA Models are so few and far between I'll likely not own one. But if any one has a spare they'd like to get rid of let me know will ya".
I will be posting my pair of USFA Henry Nettleton revolvers for sale sometime in June. These can be found posted on the Cas City page marked "USFA 2005 Catalog". I just want to test the market and see what they are worth, but they will be for sale. However, I don't know which online sales site to use; Guns America or Gun Broker. Does it matter? Thank you.

yahoody · April 15, 2015, 11:28:16 PM

Quote from: what would you say link
Being made in 1998-1999 timeframe, there will be some Uberti parts in your gun to my knowledge....

And there in lies the USFA rub. An it is a big rub that can bite the buyer in the asss..HARD!

There are USPFA guns...which are Uberti parts guns of course. No where near the actual quality of a 100% USA made gun.
Nice guns but Ubertis at 2 or 3 times the price an NIB Ubeti can be had for several vendors. And the parts will generally interchange between them! Some of that price difference can be justified. Some IMO can not.

Then there are early USFA guns. Which are in fact also Uberti parts guns. Sady even as USFA published catalogs advertising 100% USA built guns some of the catalog guns (the pair of Nettleton's mentioned here, the Sear's gun as glaring, well known Uberti-USFA examples) were in fact not 100% made. The vast majority of 4" Sheriff's Models are another example of Uberti parts guns..

In most worlds the original deception/semantics might actually be called a bait and switch with all that implies. But no question it is now BUYER BEWARE when looking at a USFA purchase

I have the time and the interest to inform myself on the nuances of USFA guns and collecting them. Others might not. But one thing for sure it isn't an easy job or one that is very forgiving of mistakes. And the mistakes are costly....easily in the $1000 to $2000 range these days with the collector demand expecting 100% USA, USFA guns.

yahoody · April 16, 2015, 01:19:02 AM

QuoteI was talking with the original owner today who owns the Artillery that was copied and pictured here number for number. He told me Doug Donnelly labeled this one a "Custer Model" but in fact the frame's serial number is well out side the range of Custer guns. How ever the trigger guard and back strap which match for numbers are from a Custer serial numbered gun.

Only Doug Donnelly can tell us the actual reason here.
But this might be a reasonable explanation as to why this gun was labeled a "Custer"...when the frame number clearly isn't.

Most of the Neddleton's are earlier Uberti parts guns. (build seems started 2005:) And both 5.5" and 7.5" versions were made up by USFA. The Custer guns seem all to be all 100% USA guns.

Nettleton serial numbers started at 47,056 and were to go as high as 51,083.

On the 5.5" gun shown, the cast hammer, tapered firing pin and front sight say Uberti to me.

The Artillery show in the first part of the discussion is an 100% USA built gun. So makes sense not to put it into the books as a Nettleton based off Uberti parts. It is really anyone's guess out side of Doug Donnelley. .

YMMV...