Captured Saber

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Would a veteran of the (un)Civil War who captured a Confederate Soldier and kept the soldier's saber for a soo-veneer be allowed to wear it in place of his own?  And would he be allowed to use it during the Indian Wars time frame?

Just wondering.  I know that officers were allowed some leeway, but enlisted were held to more strict standards.  Also, I've read that during the Ind. Wars, many (or perhaps MOST) of the sabers were left behind at the fort.

Thanks for any suggestions ahead of time!!

[St. George]

Most likely - any captured item would be treated as a 'War Trophy' and put in a place of honor 'back home'.

Were the piece to have some 'significance' to it - captured from someone 'notable' - it 'may' see display at Regiment - but probably not, since Civilians - then as now - liked souvenirs.
Thousands of items were sent 'home' and were revered - even moreso as the soldiers who'd fought in that conflict aged.

Soldiers - given the practicality of their lives, the relatively small 'space' that was 'theirs' and the fact that they were soldiering for a 'job' most likely would've sold or pawned the item long before they signed on for a hitch in the Frontier Cavalry - simply because they needed the money.

You're right about the Enlisted men being held more firmly to the standards.
'Uniformity' was and is the Order of the Day,  and having troopers running around with weaponry that wasn't 'Army' just wouldn't do.

Officers already had 'their' sabers - and if they were Officers who'd had a saber surrendered to them during wartime - the possibility that they returned it to the original owner as an act of chivalry is quite high.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Thanks for the answer, St. George.

[SGT John Chapman]

Custer was wearing a pair of CS Spurs at the LBH............

[B. Butch Cavendish]

 Well I don't like the idea of a confederate giving up his saber. And second it would not be much use in the indian wars anyway, esp. in the west. "Not many apache killed with the heavy foil outhere."

[St. George]

The fact remains that the issuance of a saber was de rigeur for Cavalry - right up and past WWI.

Whether it stayed back at the Post - or went on Campaign was the CO's decision - but the weapon was carried on the books as a part of the equipment.

Sabers had little true 'combat use' following the Civil War - relatively little during - given the preponderance of revolvers and carbines - but they did have a psychological effect and that could be put to good use if needed.

Give 'that' visual a bit of thought - a Line of mounted, armed, determined men - simultaneously drawing their sabers - could intimidate all sorts of folks.

As to Confederates and their sabers - well - there were piles of them - at Appomattox - John Wayne's line from 'The Searchers' notwithstanding...

In truth - those men wanted nothing so much as to be able to return peacefully to their homes to begin the rebuilding if they could.
If not - then the West beckoned and there wasn't much need for that saber, then - at least not as any sort of weapon or symbol.
They were a bit too busy carving out a possible future to think about 'the Glorious Cause' when they were more worried about surviving Texas.

Confederate Officers were able to retain their sidearms as a part of the agreement between Grant and Lee immediately before the signatures were affixed - and that was a matter of 'Honor' that was 'understood' by all professionals of the time.

In time - assisted by the eventual 'moderization' of warfare, with the machinegun and poison gas - that would wane...

Scouts Out!

[Rubideaux]

Don't know if any of you know this but General George Smith Patton was designated "Master of the Sword" by the Army.

[St. George]

He was...

And guess 'who' came up with 'that' title...?

There was even a beautiful badge for 'Swordsman' in the event that a Trooper qualified for it.

Still - he did get some credit in the development of the 'Patton' Cavalry Saber - though much of the work had already been done at Ames.

Until the Thirties - Horse Cavalrymen still qualified with the Sword and every so often - you'll see a Marksmanship Badge (Post-1926) that features a bar that says 'Sword".
Others may say 'Pistol-D' or 'Pistol-M' - for either 'Dismounted' or 'Mounted' qualification with that weapon.

Scouts Out!

[Steel-eye Steve]

He was...

And guess 'who' came up with 'that' title...?

There was even a beautiful badge for 'Swordsman' in the event that a Trooper qualified for it.

Still - he did get some credit in the development of the 'Patton' Cavalry Saber - though much of the work had already been done at Ames.

Until the Thirties - Horse Cavalrymen still qualified with the Sword and every so often - you'll see a Marksmanship Badge (Post-1926) that features a bar that says 'Sword".
Others may say 'Pistol-D' or 'Pistol-M' - for either 'Dismounted' or 'Mounted' qualification with that weapon.

Scouts Out!

The M1913 "Patten Saber" is for all practical purposes a copy of the British P1908. It is, BTW, a very nice weapon, straight bladed for use mainly as a thrusting saber.

[St. George]

There's a monograph available from the U.S. Cavalry Museum at Fort Riley, Kansas - titled:

'The Last Combat Sword of the American Army' - by Stroh.

In it, he describes the barest-boned data with regard to the M1913 Sword and its development - citing Patton's 'adaptation and modification' of those currently in use in European armies.

What 'is' interesting is the Course description and the manufacturing method of the 'High Dummy' as used for mounted practice.

Scouts Out!

[Ol Gabe]

Question regarding Sabres, swords, etc.,
'IF' one has 'one' and 'it' is said to be an 'Original' from the C.W. timeframe, how does one know this beyond a shadow of a doubt? Were not the same sabres & Swords available and reissued throughtout the West til recalled late in the 1890's? Jist fishin' here. not trying to hijack the thread or anything but it seemed a good place to jump in as many have what are called 'Original' C.W. Sabres, etc., including me!
Best regards and good researching!
'Ol Gabe

[St. George]

Essentially - the Model 1860 Cavalry Saber was issued throughout - along with the Model 1872 Officer's Saber.

None were recalled - they were still an issue item for cavalry - just not employed as regularly.

What changed at all was when the Model 1906 Cavalry Saber was introduced - replacing the earlier issue - and the only difference - beyond the date at the ricasso was that the Model 1906 had an iron guard.

That one was replaced by the Model 1913 Cavalry Sword.

The Cavalry saber has been manufactured in India, of late - and of course - those are replicas.

During the Civil War - they were made in France and Germany as well as in America and not all of those foreign-made ones are marked - though they conform to certain Patterns.

Today - there are some really 'good' references available on issue edged weapons - and there needs to be, since some of those fakes have been used by reenactors for awhile, now and they're developing their own 'aged' look.

I was thinking about adding the topic to my 'Notes' - so maybe this will be the incentive.

If you want to look at the ricasso and send me any pertinent data via PM - I'll see what I can tell you.

Just remember - without actually seeing and handling the piece - all I can tell you is what those markings mean - I can't talk 'originality'.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!