1860 Colt Richards Conversion

[Graveyard Jack]

I'd love to find one for $300! I saw the one on Gunbroker recently that went for $500. That's just too much for a gun that will probably need rebuilding.

[RickB]

Why do you think it would need rebuilding?

[Graveyard Jack]

Because the ASM's are notorious for having soft innards. I enjoy my Cimarron (Uberti) Type II and would love to have an ASM Type I but I'm going in knowing that I may have to have it rebuilt and possibly refinished. If I hadn't just bought three new guns in August I'd jump on Jay's offer and find a Colt to send him posthaste.

[RickB]

I know they have a spotty reputation but I own 2 ASMs   , a schofield and this open top and both are as solid as my Ubertis.

[Bonnie_blue1861]

The grips were what caught my attention when I first came across it at the show.  I actually passed on this gun the first time I saw it. A couple of months passed until the next gun show and I went to see if it would be available.  It was already sold and gone. Funny thing happened though.  I was standing at a table looking over some guns and a young guy comes up to the guy running the table wanting to sell two guns. One was the very gun I had come to the show hoping to buy. He said I could have it for $300. I bought it immediately.  He wanted less for it than the original cost of $375. I knew I had better buy it and not let it slip through my fingers again.

Geez...talking about being at the right place at the right time...what are the chances of that happening?

[RickB]

Exactly what I thought.  That's why I jumped on it like Oprah on a canned ham.

[Graveyard Jack]

I know they're not all in need of help I just know that there is a possibility that it will need rebuilding and that reflects the price I'm willing to pay. Not to mention that Uberti's tend to be better overall.

[RickB]

Yeah. I have heard of the problems people have attributed to ASM guns. My first one was my Wells Fargo model Schofield. The only problem I ever had with it was the barrel release lever was too stiff. I got that fixed and since then it's been just as good as my two Uberti Schofileds. If you haven't noticed, I like Schofields. 

The RM 51 open top was a impulse buy. I saw it, had to have it and bought it more for it's looks than anything. The price was great and the build and condition of the gun is as good as any gun in my collection. The only problem for me with it is that it was made to shoot .38 colt. A somewhat difficult round to find. After posting my concerns on the forum of this gun and asking the guys here what I had they gave me tons of info on the gun. Yes, they covered the fact that ASM has a spotty reputation. I also found that since the cylinder is long enough to accept .38 Special rounds that this gun should be able to shoot .38 special rounds as long as I use the lighter loaded ones. So I bought a bunch of Ultramax cowboy loads and they are great.

Guns like this can be found for a good price. I'm proof of it. Good luck in your hunt for your next one.

Currently I am looking for someone who works on the old S&W pocket pistols. I have a breaktop #2 in .38  that has some need for a trigger or hammer job. Once that is done with it should make a very fine shooter.

[1860]

Yea...it's an old thread but I figured this was a good one to bump back up from 2006, to create a good discussion

I'm always up for some hanger flying about these guns, just surprised the search went back that far.

I like the 38s for their economy and the brass is readily available, I have a 5gal bucket of it so if I don't feel like cleaning it-(BP rounds)-I just dump it.  You won't want to do that with stuff like 44 Russian, Spl, or even 44-40.  Problem with the 38s is that because of the smaller bore size, the guns are heavy and don't handle as well as the large caliber guns, especially rifles.

I disagree with those that say ASMs are as good as any other or whatever.  I cannot estimate the number of hours it took me to turn these two Richards into reliable shooters, and then many more to make them handle black powder.  I also have an ASM SAA in 45colt, very pretty gun with a flawless action and that's about the only good things about it, came with cylinders that mic'd out to over .460, a bbl gap of half a mile-(had to set back the barrel a full turn and recut the cone)-Hammer had no knurls on the spur, need I say more..

I'm going to try to attach a photo but it does not show in the preview so wee shall see..


60

[RRio]

I just love the looks of these guns!

[Mean Bob Mean]

I have a ANIB Cimarron 7 1/2" Cav. 45 LC. in the Orginal Finish that I might trade for a 1860 ASM 44 Colt Richards, in good condition. Also would buy a 38 SPL. in good shape. Seems most people thing they are junk, you would think they would be for sale all over the place, but I don't seem to be able to find one.

Reno
NCOWS #810

I think people who have them might buy them up for parts.  There were a couple on gunbroker in the last few weeks, whether still there or no I cannot say. 

[reno]

Mean Bob, thanks. Been looking everday on Gunbrokers under Cowboy Action shooting and Revolvers and somehow missed them. Also Gunsamerica, Auction Arms, and Gunsenternational, no luck.
Thanks again,

Reno

[rifle]

I have a coupla those ASM Richards. One an 1860 in 38 and the other an 1861 in 44Colt. The 1861 is the same as the 1860 with the exception of a slightly shorter barrel and Navy size grips. Besides that they are the same gun.

Both needed the triggers and hammers slightly reconfigured to get rid of the hair triggers. Trigger jobs and reharden the parts.

The 1861 doesn't have the cylinder bushing(non-integral) and the 1860 does. A prior 1860 in 38 had no bushing and would work fine just working the action but....would drag some after the first shot. I traded it in fer the one with the bushing and it's fine. Funny thing...the 1861 without the bushing is fine also. I should have kept the one without the bushing and figured out why it would drag after it was fired even with smokeless. Reason unknown the cylinder would get set forward and stay there after it was fired. I thunk the ratchets at the rear of the cylinder would catch on the frame somewhere is all.

Anyway the timing was good enough with all of the ASM guns I have or had. No soft parts I've noticed. The trigger/bolt spring and the mainspring in all were too light and needed replaced with stronger springs.

Accurate? Yes they are. The 38 is barrel heavy but I'm used to it.  Both the 1861 and the 1860 shoot a little high. Not enough to not be able to get used to it. I would not grind down the rear sight. I'd raise the front if I were to sight point of aim/point of impact but....I get point of impact shootin a lil low. Both guns shoot well to a hundred yards and more. Consistantly all the time using smokeless.

Using black binds them up but lube pills on the powder help that enough so I can shoot black but....I carry a cleaning rod when shootin black. A small Visine bottle with solvent or water gets a few drops where needed to keep the guns running with black.

Small bores cake up with the black more than larger ones so the 38 is more prone to need cleaned some now and then.

Anywhoooo.....I made sure the arbors are bottomed in the barrels arbor hole so they are stable with cylinder gapand all. I'm a Kitchen table Gunsmith but.....I don't fudge stuff up. I'm a perfectionist and....I make them right the right way. Neve had much but admiration fer my work when I helped an Hombre with the fit and action of an ASM conversion. Not much different then workin a cap&baller.

I'm just sayin....Kitchen Table Gunsmith isn't always synonomous with crappy work. There are some KTG's that work the guns the right way after some pro smiths mess them up. Done a few over again after the pro sorta messed with them. The Pros need to get the work out to eat and feed Mamma and the Dogs. Me....I feed Mamma and the Dogs well and do the gunsmithin stuff well no matter how long it takes. I lately did an Begian Centennial 1860 Colt fer an Hombre(free of charge with only reimbursement fer parts and shop supplies. It had problems from the factory(wide cylinder gap and no bottomed arbor) with the action out of wack and over sprung and everything else imaginable after being shot like that fer years since 1963. Barrelframe pins mis located and a loose arbor from that and all sorts of stuff wrong.

When I was done the gun was fit as perfect as humanly possible with a nice trigger breakin bout 3 lbs. with a nice "break like a glass rod" to the trigger let off and the timing perfect the way the timing should be with the full cock and the bolt snickin into the cylinder notches happening simultaneously. No over draw to the hammer backwards stop point and all that. Parts rehardened and the finish(which was very bad actually) refinished smooth and contoured properly and Nitre Blued a rich dark blue black. The grips left as is and the trigger guard left aged fer aestetics sake per the owner and......the owner was one happy young man when he picked er up with the gun lookin like and functioning like a new custom actioned no better possible action to it.

I took over a month to put the 90 plus hours to it to get it proper. That included a new barrel crown and breech face and forcing cone done with perfectly fittin piloted reamers from Brownells and....a new tool steel wedge in the refitted and proper-ized arbor and barrel slots work with.... an extra slightly wide wedge fer the future if it's ever needed.

I liked seein it layin on "The Kitchen Table" waitin fer the Hombe to come take it home. The new finish and the fluted cylinder and all made it look like a work of art in form and function. Funny thing....revolvers that work properly always look better.

Anywhooooo....I'm just typin this stuff not to honk my own horn at all. I'm just givin an example contrary to the mention of "Kitchen Table Gunsmith" in the above reply. No malice at all. I just thunked I'd type a story this morning.

Thing is....I didn't work at the "Kitchen Table" at all. I worked in my lil shop in the barn.  

Anywhoooo....not all home spun gunsmiths are hacks so.....ifin you found an eccentric old man like me to work yer gun fer free....you'd be satisfied with the work and the price fer labor. The price? A heart felt "thank you" said with a smile.     

There is a God and....he is a shooter and a gun nut to boot. Sometimes he might work thru an old hill jack dirt rollin knock down drag out fool like me with patches on my Carharts and wearin an NRA hat. I ain't a saint just a "Kitdchen Table Gunsmith". There are thousands of us out there all over the world.

Gotta go feed the hounds. Later Hombres!

[Major 2]

Rifle if you are a "Kitchen Table Gunsmith" then in my opinion YOU are...

a "Kitchen Table "GOURMET" gunsmith..

I had the opportunity to handle and shoot a Belgian Centaur you transformed ..

I recall, I was told you welded the bolt hole opening and relocated to correct timing. Corrected the arbor fit and the hammer
This was about 8 years ago for my friend in Virginia,  WT.
I recall he bought the pig in poke Centaur on Gunbroker.
He seeked you out, sent it to you , I know he was very pleased with the result.

I though the work was excellent though the specifics are blurry with time passage 

[rifle]

Major2,Thanks fer the nice mention up there. As I shrink like a dried prune with time I've evolved with workin cap&ballers and sometimes a conversion iron. I bet I had the bolt of that gun you mentioned welded on so one side was built up so the other was taken off some so the chambers could be lined up with the barrel bore.

Not hard to do if takin yer time. Take the one side off slowly till the cylinder lines up with the bore of the barrel then simply weld the other side and file shape it till it fits the cylinder notches. You can move the cylinder either way. Sometimes the bolt head needs a lil room milled on the frame or the bolt hole in the frame moved over maybe with a bolt block on one side or shims on the other depending.

Never had to do that to a ASM conversion yet since Carlos San Marcos seemed to like his guns with good alignment to the chambers and barrel bore. That's one good attribute to those guns and an important one. The ASM conversions have enough good attributes to them to warrant wise Hombre searchin fer them.

I don't know what inspired ASM to design the 1860 without the rebate cylinder or the backplate not overlappin the cylinder the small amount like an original Richards. Safety I bet since there's more beef to the back half of the cylinder and the case heads can be seen easy to see if the gun is loaded and all and where the empty chamber is.
I bet Uberti doesn't do a Richards since it's hard to see where the empty chamber is with one. We're lucky to have the ones(Richard Mason) Uberti makes.

I had to put a stronger mainspring to my 1860 so it would not misfire and a stronger trigger/bolt spring.
I was glad I did the trigger job when I had to dispatch a wild house cat that was tryin to kill my sweethearts(wife not girl friend) barn kitties. Got lucky and got em on the run even remembered to aim a lil low.

[Reddog Charlie]

Highlander:
I have both the Traditions 1851 Mason-Richardson conversion in 38 cal and the 1872 Colt Mason-Richardson 44 Colt.  Had to do a little tuning on them but they both shoot like they have eyes!  I shoot 38 Special out of the 1851 Navy and shoot 44 Russian out of the 1872 Colt (Traditions).  My favorite is the 1872 Open Top Colt in the 44 Colt caliber(44 Russian Starline).  The ammo loads great using Lee carbide 44 Russian dies. Had to chuck the cases in my lathe and turn .007 off the rims so they would not clash inserting them into the cylinder.   The 5-cavity Lee flat nose  casts a 200gr bullet.  I run them through a Star luber-sizer at .429 dia.  5grs of Bullseye works good.  The Lyman 158gr Keith semi wadcutter sized .358 shoots great in the 1851 loaded with 3.5grs of Bullseye.

I carry the 1872 Colt in a crossdraw holster on my quad.  I have 500 acres to ride around the farm here in southwestern PA.  Maybe will get a chance to bust a groundhog this summer for the bad Groundhog Day prediction he made this last Feb 2nd.

Regards,
Reddog Charlie

[reno]

Highlander999, if you want to sell your ASM 38 Conversion let me know as I will buy it.

Reno
515-981-0694
leepr@msn.com