Loading black... on a progressive loader??

[TUCO-the-ratt]

What a wealth of information on this subject. Thanks for posting guys. I am anxious to... cautiously... try this out. 

[Coffinmaker]

As has been mentioned, our advice, suggestions and experience are sometimes worth their cost.  Some folks are overly cautious, some are somewhat reckless.  However, the dangers of combining BP with plastic powder hoppers on progressive presses have been overblown in the past.  Nobody has had a hopper blow up.  But, what YOU do is your call.
I shoot a lot of matches and burn a bunch of powder.  I load on a Dillon 650 in full auto mode.  I load BP and APP.  I have had zero trouble.  Some say, at one time, Dillon cautioned against Federal primers so some still refuse to use them is a Dillon.  I've run a couple hundred thousand thru my Dillon(s) no problems at all.
Compression in pistol cases is a function of seating the bullet.  A separate compression die serves no purpose and is redundant.  Simply seating the bullet and crimping takes care of it all.
Your call.

Coffinmaker

[Navy Six]

I load in the exact same manner as described by Short Knife Johnson. The powder measure I use is an MVA which has a brass hopper. When I first started loading black for Cowboy shoots(1999), I too was scared away by all the advice against using a plastic powder hopper. This method is admittedly a little slow, but I enjoy the process. I load a little several nights a week in the off season, it is like therapy for me. I always have a pile of ammo when the new season starts. Hope you enjoy the process as well and don't forget, there is a lot of different ways to do this. Unlike a lot of internet info, if you stick to this site you will receive a good deal of excellent advice and sooner or later you will find a method that suits you.

[will52100]

I have a couple of presses, the one I use for black powder pistol ammo is a Lee pro-1000.  For rifle rounds I use a Lee turret press, black powder or smokeless rifle rounds and hand charge.  For black powder rifle I've got a Lyman measure where I charge the case then put it back in the turret press.  On the Pro-1000 I use the lee auto disk measure and it works great.

Whoever was worried about a bomb in there face, there's nothing to contain the burning powder to make it detonate.  On the other hand you'd have one heck of a fireball erupting in your face if you did light it off.  I'm assuming a powder measure similar to Lee's with a cap that just sits on, if you've got a robust measure with a tight cap it might be possible for it to contain enough pressure long enough to cause an explosion.

Sparks from moving machinery???  Just how fast are some of you running your progressives???!   I don't think it'd be possible to get a spark unless something was bad wrong with any manual press that had just a bit of lube on the moving parts.  Personally I'd worry more about detonating a primmer and possibly lighting off the powder charge than anything like static or sparks from running the machine.

A caveat about  static electricity.  It's been proven that black powder can't be set off by static, at least to my satisfaction.  However, there is one possibility, heat will set off black powder and an arc creates heat where it grounds.  So it might be possible for a static discharge to heat something enough that it would set off the powder, while the static charge itself did nothing to the powder.

In any event, do your research, and make your own decision, mine or anybodies advice is pretty much worth what you paid for it.

[Cuts Crooked]

If I had a reloading press that created sparks I'd be getting me a new press....whether I was loading black or that other stuff!!!!!

[Dick Dastardly]

I'm with ya on that one Cuts.  Properly set up and lubricated presses just don't make sparks.  Static electricity needs a difference in potential for a spark to move from one place to another.  Ground yourself before you start loading.

DON'T SMOKE within 100 feet of any gun powder.  No alcohol till you're done and beyond the loading area.

DD-MDA

[David Battersby]

....  Quit smoking while reloading......

I stopped smoking while reloading years ago, I was a big problem. I kept getting ashes in my beer.

[David Battersby]

okay, seriously now.
I reload 44WCF black powder loads on a Lee Classic Turret, and it is just a little slower than smokeless reloading.
I resize on my RCBS Rockchucker,, so with the Lee I am starting with de-primed resized clean brass.
Station #1 The crimp die ( yes I know/stay with me )  I raise the empty shell holder and use the Auto Prime to insert a primer into the primer loading cup/arm. While lowering the shell holder I then insert the brass and bottom out installing the primer.
Station #2 The powder through mouth expanding die. I have the Lee Pro Auto Disc mounted, I made a powder hopper out of scrap copper fittings. The hopper is "grounded" to the turret plate assembly.
Station #3 Powder compression die
Station #4 Bullet seating die
Station #5 Crimp die
Repeat
There are only four dies in the turret plate, Station #1 is "virtual" as I lower the completed cartridge I don't bottom out and turn the turret. I just remove the cartridge as it clears, raise the ram and put a primer on the primer loading arm.

I hope that makes sense.

I installed the anti static hopper because while the risk may be very low the consequences are very high. Just my choice.

Cuts Crooked. The spark problem from what I have read is with the combination of a steel/iron powder measure body, steel rotating drum and a piece of hard contaminant in the black powder. As the powder is organic and manufactured from raw natural materials this is more likely to occur than with that modern stuff. 

[rifle]

I was told by someone that the plastic jugs fer the black is a non static type.

I use a Lee Classic Turret Press(I like it) and the regular Lee turret press I've had fer a long time. Ican use the Hornady blackpowder measure I have with the Classic Turret Press that has four stations. The powder thru expander dies are good fer loading black thru them on the smaller Lee Turret press.

Anywhooooo....I don't see any problem with using a black powder measure set in a loading press. Smokeless measure. Not me.

There's is a reason blackpowder measures have brass drums and not steel drums and no plastic hoppers. Ask the manufacturers why that is that they want spark free parts and no plastic fer the BP measures.

It isn't true that static doesn't set off the black. Been proven by some sort of electrical engineer. There is a pic on the net by some Doctor showing static sparks falling all over a pile of black powder. No ignition . Then an electrical engineer showing the same thing but.....being able to produce a multitude of different type static sparks there was found to be a "certain type static spark" that sets off the black powder. Static does set off the black with the right type static spark. There are different types of static sparks.

I know first hand from a customer I sold a muzzleloader rifle to when I had the shop at the old farm. I'd instruct people on how to load and let them come out and shoot on the farm. Test their rifles and cap&ballers since places to shoot while doin a walk-about are rare.

Anywhoooo....the customer thought it was wise to save on a powder flask or horn and carry his black in an old wine botta(the leather bag lookin things with the strap over the shoulder) because he liked it. It was plastic lined under the leather. I advised him to NOT USE it.

On another farm somewhere he was just walking out on a hot day to shoot at ground hogs fer the farmer. The customer told me the wine botta was hanging on his hip while he was walking and....a pound of black ignitied on his hip.

He was burned bad and there was a big hole in the jeans he wore. Burned on the hip and up his side to the arm pit. Seems like the static from the leather rubbing or the powder rubbing inside the wine botta set the powder off. He was not smoking and there was no other logical reason fer the powder to ignite. It was a sunny day but I doubt the sun set the powder off. Not hot enough. Certain static sparks can set off the black.

On another forum years ago I was in a lil debate about the static and the black since no one believed static could set off the black mainly because of the pic on the net by a doctor creating static sparks showering down on a pile of black and it doesn't ignite. That seemed to be the proof for all to see cept....it didn't show the right type static sparks. A person on the forum got with his buddy...the electrical engineer and tested and tested different static sparks till they found one that set off the pile of black. That thread just sorta died from there.

[will52100]

Got a link to the test?  Would love to read up on it.

I still don't think static discharge by itself will set off powder as the current flows through the powder without much resistance or heat.  I guess if a large enough charge were to build up on the other hand it might have enough power.  Or as I suspect the static arc heats the surrounding material it discharges against to the point it will set the powder off.  Most forms of electrical welding is just an electrical arc after all and I'm pretty sure that's hot enough to set any powder off.

One thing I do do with any powder measure is to use the anti static dryer sheets and give them a good rub down, keeps powder from sticking and possibly from building up a big charge.  One thing to remember is the faster and longer you cycle something the larger the charge will be.  I don't reload fast enough to build up a big charge, and every time you open the hopper to put more powder in you drain the charge into you.

This is all conjecture on my part and would love to learn more tested FACTS about it, especially if I am wrong.

[rifle]

Will52100,
i don't know where the Doctors test is that showed the static sparks showering down on the powder with no ignition or the test where the sparks from an electrical engineer did ignite once he found the right one. It was shown on some forum somewhere. I just remember seeing both and stuck the basic premise up the the ole attic under what's left of my hair.

People can doubt that some static can set off black and use non-blackpowder measures fer years and have no problem. I never used a smokeless measure fer black because......a regular blackpowder measure is not a real big expense.

I do know(or did) a person that used the leather plastic lined wine botta thing to haul his powder till......it ignited and burned him fairly badly.  He then understood why I advised him to not use plastic to contain black powder. He was addament about the fact there was nothing to ignite that powder in that plastic lined container cept static. I saw the burns. I questioned him best I could to see if there might be some other reason the powder ignited. He was just walking out across a field with the bota slung on his shoulder carrying the rifle on a summers day and WHOOOOOSH. Flames and pains.

I mean.....no one needs to believe me about this person I knew and had the powder ignite. People can doubt it and talk intelligently bout this and that bout static and powder and just doubt and doubt. Not me. I saw the burns the guy had. That is good enough fer me.

That told me I was right about using a Blackpowder measure and keeping plastic away from my loading bench. I'd spend the money on a blackpowder measure. I mean....why not be safe instead of sorry?  Why press yer luck fer no real good reason?

I don't understand why anyone would want to buck against the common knowledge that came from "who knows where" bout plastic and sparks and all when it comes to blackpowder?

Maybe some of you's Hombre here can tell me why anyone would want to NOT use a blackpowder designed powder measure?  Why would anyone want to go against the grain of common sense and advocate the use of the wrong type powder measure? It's always...."It works fer me....so far....no problem". 

Just sayin....ya know?  I'll take the margin that errors on the side of safety.

This ain't any different then when I go to "not advocating" over compression of black powder in cartridges. I get....everyone does it. The great long range winners do it. Then I referr to William Wellington Greener's book......"The Developement of the Gun" and make note that there is one other "exspurt"(spelled wrong fer the fun of it) that studied the case extensively and came to the conclusion that compressed powder can ignite the rear of the charge....crush the front of the charge with great force...and cause detonation of the powder and blow a barrel.  I mean....Greener(the shotgun guy) and others back in the day weree so far advanced they could recognize the "waves" that run back and forth thru a powder charge as it ignites and ...stuff like that.

The over-compression thing has nothing to do with this thread but.....I'm sayin.....I do my best when it comes to safety of fellow shooters to tell it as I see it and not "bend in the wind of common practice".

I could save my breath and skip over a thread like this but....since there are times when a "dumb ole hill jack" is the only one that's right I'll press on against the uphill struggle to keep Folks safe.

I remember what a stuggle it was convincing Folks that an arbor bottomed in the barrels hole of a Colt cap&baller was the best way to go......unless the arbor in the hole was snug with no "loose" had an advantage to that even. Same thing with "lube pills on the powder" under the balls instead of grease over the lead balls.

Now a-days it's common fer Folks to like their arbors bottomed and like wads and lube pills under the lead balls in a cap&baller and....other things.

I'd like to see Folks advocating fer usin the right powder measures with black powder. You know how they say that the best place to get mis-information is on the net? I hope they ain't talking about me.

[will52100]

Not doubting you on the plastic lined powder flask.  Here's my take on it, may or may not be way off.  I'm thinking because the flask was plastic lined it had not way of conducting the charge, and powder being shaken around while walking around probably produced a truly massive charge with no way to bleed it off till it ignited the powder.  Black powder's primarily charcoal which is a form of carbon and is a semi conductor.  Which means it'll conduct electricity, just not real well.  After the charge built up and had no where to go it finally got high enough to heat the powder through resistance and caused it to ignite.  With a metal flask any static charge get's bleed off to the surrounding air or when you touch it, not sure on a powder horn, except most horn makers suggest not glueing the butt plug in so that if it ignites it'll pop off without causing a detonation.

Just as an aside, my lyman black powder measure has an iron body, steel drum, and brass powder adjustment.  It's an older model but specifically states it's for black powder.  I use it for rifle rounds.  For my pistol set up I use the Lee auto disk, and while the main hopper is plastic, the lower is aluminum and I do give it a wipe down with anti static dryer sheets every now and then.  Any any time you touch it you bleed the charge down.

Thing about static is that even an all metal charger will generate static, it just bleeds the charge off easier than plastic since plastic is an insulator.  Another thing not mentioned is ambient humidity, higher humidity means the air will help bleed a charge off faster than dry air.

Again this is just my thinking and is subject to change due to new information.

[rifle]

Thanks fer the info Will !      Yer more knowledgeble bout static then I am.
I remember.I distinctly heard a "SNAP".
I had powder ignite on me once that may have been static related. Blew a brass measure with 75gr.FFg that somehow got to a copper flask with a spring closed flapper and blew that and blew out the kitchen windows and a coupla living room windows.

The brass measure went to pieces and most went out the window close to me never to be found. The flask parts were mostly missing too. Wife came downstairs screaming,"what happened?" and I exclained, "I blew myself up".  She screamed,"yer t-shirt is on fire". I screamed, "I know".   I jumped in the bath tub and put myself out.,

Next I found stuff to close up the windows since it was a fridgid night. Then washed the black stuff off my arms best I could. It was my skin. I had burns on my hands and the inside of my arms up to where my T-shirt started. As close to third degree as could be without being  third degree. No skin grafts. Just more skin comin off like leather leaving more and more like a huge open blister. A very thin layer of a certain fat that's under our skin was not all burned off so the skin grew back after many weeks of PAIN. Horrible pain and pain pills that didn't work worth crap.  Burns hurt. Lucky my pretty face didn't get scarred. Just real red and all. Lucky my private part didn't get scarred up too. It may have ended up like one of those ribbed condoms.

I'm not sure what made the powder blow like that. There was a plastic table cloth there and a plastic type deck carpet under the table and a gas open flame type old heater by the wall behind me. I had on wool socks and was rubbin my cold feet on the floor to warm them up. Old cold farm house.
There was a lit cigarrette in an ash tray pushed away from everything over on the table. Maybe a flake of powder flew over there somehow and then ignited and then flew into the powder measure in my hand and then a flake from that flew into the flask spout in front of me that was closed . It was the large Zouave flask that was full. 

Anywhoooo....I thunk the plastic table cloth and the plastic type carpet and the feet rubbin on the floor made a spark somehow or ....whatever. Maybe a grain of powder flew to the other side of the table somehow where the ash tray was and flew back into the powder measure with the 75gr.of powder and then somehow got in the closed (spring flapper type closure) powder flask.  Maybe a gr. of powder flew over me into the open flame gas heater(antique) a few ft. behind me and flew back over me.    It was a pound of powder that blew and the pressure knocked out windows in the kitchen and all the way in the living room from the kitchen.
Maybe the plastic table cloth and the carpet and the wool socks rubbin the floor.

The whole house was full of smoke. My glasses saved my eyes and the glasses looked sand-blasted. I saw the broiling mass of brown gases headin right at me. I'm exrta carefull anymore with black powder.

I was a professional fireman fer a number of years awhile and never got burned even while I saved some fellow firefighters a coupla times at least.Then in my own kitchen......whooooom......well....it wasn't fun.    

I'm just sayin......it may have been sorta like the plastic lined leather wine bota with powder in it that blew on that Hombre's hip. Freaky. Maybe not "sorta" maybe just freaky.   

Maybe that's why I like to use a black powder measure instead of a smokeless one. Crap happens!  Same thing a person that has a sniper bullet just entering the forehead from outta the clear blue sky may thunk the last nano-second worth of thought.

You know...I have a Lyman powder measure fer smokeless. It's been with me since the beginning of my loadin life. I like it. Also have the Lee Auto Pro disc measure. I have one of the adjustable things goes in where the disc normally go. I like it too. I have extra disc fer it.
I bought a Lyman Black Powder measure. it was erratic and I looked inside the best I could and saw projections from casting where they could act like little selves and hold powder. Sometimes drop it sometimes not. I sent it back and should hve just had it exchanged but.....thunked I'd try a Hornady Black Powder measure. Ilike it.Brass drum in steel base and all with the aluminum hopper. I'm pretty sure the arms fer makin it case accuated can be had and I'm gonna try that. I'm tired of the long drop tube I have on it now.

Anywhoooooo......all things considered I'm glad you and the other Hombre here haven't had any ignitions with their powder measures.

[will52100]

Man if'n I'd had that to happen I'd have ground straps on any powder containers, wether they were for smokeless or black!   And probably be wearing a bomb suit to load as well!

I've got the same flask your talking about, I use it for my Walkers and Dragoons.  It does have a valve, but it's not exactly air tight, one of the reasons you don't load from the flask into a rifle.

Not sure what happened, but sounds like your house was basically a Leyden jar.  Come to think of it that's a good description of the the plastic lined flask.  No idea what really happened, just glad to hear you came out OK.

[medic15al]

Rifle.. As a medically retired Fire-Medic I am relieved you came out OK in that little adventure!
Any shrapnel wounds or damage to the house from the flask or just blast and smoke damage?

[Slowhand Bob]

The only true black that I had been loading when I stopped shooting was shotgun shells but when I start back it will be with 777 in the shotgun and APP in the cartridges.  I recently acquired one of the LEE Classic Turret presses for loading the fake bp cartridges and do shotgun on the MEC 600.  If I like this combination, it will not be to expensive to add another LEE Classic and  have one each for 44-40 and .45 Cowboy Special.  Though only one round is being run at the time, it can go faster than my single stage.

[rifle]

Medic15al,
I didn't have any sucking chest wounds or shapnal cuts or arteries needin pinched off with clamps.
The house was ok cept fer the windows and the table cloth. Part of the powder measure was in the living room somehow that's all. Everything that was gone for good had to go out windows. I remember my hands were hurtin like a huge whip had snapped them.

The thing is embarasing but.....it gives a different perspective to this subject. Human flesh turns to black carbon pretty quick with that high of a heat from blackpowder ignition. Might make Hombre and Hombretes thunk bout gettin a blackpowder measure just to be on the safe side. 

I fergot to mention the debate I had with the doctor bout reporting the incident as a possible violation with explosives. A police officer came to the ER to speak to me and I explained it was just a hunter loading a few Quick Loads fer the muzzleloader rifle to hunt deer in the morning. No bomb making with explosives. Never knew doctors are required to report stuff like explosions with explosives.

They believed me and let it slid as a dumb thing only.

[medic15al]

Glad to hear no serious penetrating injuries. I got literally nipped by a bullet back in 1993 in B'ham, ALA around 2 A.M. in the Kingston projects. Grazed past my leg and shoulder felt wind. While at hospital undergoing mandatory return to service checkup a vpolice officer accused me of being in the project to buy dope. Never mind my uniform shirt full of EMS patches like a boy scout was sitting on the bed and my partner was standing in the room...

[Navy Six]

Rifle, thanks for taking the time to report your experiences. I don't doubt what any of the other pards have reported, even if some of it sounds quite opposite. I started reloading Blackpowder in cartridges after reading Mike Venturino's work on the subject years ago and remember his warnings to use an appropriate powder measure. Since I didn't have a scientific background I didn't feel qualified to dispute his statements. One thing I do know is that most rules and laws seem to have an exception. The way my luck runs, I didn't want to be that "static electricity" exception. Especially since I usually have at least a case of powder around. I reload in my basement and the previous carpet we had seemed to induce the typical static issues when I walked on it in the winter with the heater going. Made me a little nervous and I have continued to err on the side of caution. Like you said, a powder measure designed specifically for Blackpowder isn't that expensive. Either way, glad to hear most people report no problems with whatever procedures they use.