Terminology Question:

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

When I first decided to make my own holster,, I heard and seen the term "Mexican Loop".  I believed at that time that I knew that that meant.  In the past month, I have been questioning what I believed in the beginning.

What constitutes a Mexican loop holster?  Is it the loop formed for the belt?  Is it the slot's cut into the belt loop?  Is it a combination of items?

TwoWalks

[Red Cent]

And I bet I know the cause of the confusion. Me too. Unless it is the body/pouch of the holster being the same (somewhat). When the "loops" are referred to it has always shown a holster that is inserted in one or two slots in the back flap/skirt.

[Camano Ridge]

Two Walks, here is my take on the Mexican Loop holster. Others may have a different interpitation and perhaps someone like Chuck Burrows will chime in as I am sure he has done much research on it. It is my understanding that the Mexican loop holster came into popularity in the 1870's. There is debate as to who the firt maker was. It is believed the style originated in northern Mexico or the American Southwest. Mexican loop refers to the overall construction and style.To be classified as Mexican loop the construction is as follows. The holster and skirt are cut as one piece the main body of the holster is folded over and sewn along a main seam to form the pouch for the pistol. The remaing section is the skirt it usually had 2 four or six slits cut in it. The holster pouch was folded over and tucked through the slits on the skirt forming the skirt loops. When the holster was fitted to the skirt and formed this left a large belt loop that allowed the holster to be put on a variety of belt widths as well as being slid over cartridge loops. In some instances, acording to Packing Iron the skirt loops were riveted or sewn on, this was more common with Texas and Montana makers. Hope this helps.

To sum it up I belive for it to be Mexican loop it has to be (original style) formed from a single piece with the folded skirt forming the belt loop and the holster pouch being held in place by the skirt loops.

[ChuckBurrows]

Camano has it right although later the same basic style as the all in one piece, but with riveted on loops (popular with Montana makers and my favorite loop) was/is also considered a Mexican Loop style holster.
The reason for the popularity was due to the belt carrying cartridge loops. The loops on the earlier Slim Jim's, which had been designed for cap and ball revolvers were generally too narrow to allow them to go over the cartridges, whereas the Mexican loop gave a much wider and taller loop with plenty of strength and held the holster snug against the belt..

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

Red Cent, I bet you do 

Camano Ridge and Chuck, thanks to both for the reply. 

So to be considered a Mexican loop (early cut loops / later riveted on loops) it must have the loops holding the pouch in place. 

[Graveyard Jack]

If I remember right, even this style is referred to as a Mexican loop in Packing Iron.

[Camano Ridge]

Craig C, yes Packing Iron refers to that holster as Mexican loop style on page 101. It I believe is comonly refered to as a Dodge CIty pattern holster. It has the attributes of the Mexican loop in that it has one piece construction of the skirt and holster with the skirt and holster forming the belt loop and a loop on the skirt to hold the holster in place.. As was mentioned earlier the loops were some  times stitched or sewn on, on some later variations.

[Cliff Fendley]

Territorial differences and the holsters maker has almost as much to do with the style of loop and the way it was attached as the time frame does.

[Red Cent]

An explanation is needed. Cowboy Fast Draw, a game started by Cal Elrich has certain rules and regulations. The type of holster authorized is the center of this discussion.

"1800s Western-Style (one-piece) Mexican Loop, Slim Jim, and California pattern holsters of leather/rawhide construction."


A lot of participants use holsters that does not have the strap nor do they have the slits as a Mexican loop holster. My holster is a good example. Does this holster meet the letter of the rule?

[Cliff Fendley]

That is not anything like what would have been found prior to 1900, Neither is 95 % of the holsters seen at SASS shoots.

Cowboy fast draw has a lot of backing up to do in order to get to that "1800's style" since that sport has never been performed with "1800's style" holsters.

NCOWS rules specifically state one requirement that eliminates SASS and fast draw holsters from being like authentic old west holsters and that is the trigger guard being full exposed and not captured by the holster at all. That one aspect is not something that you see on 1800's holsters. That is one thing that is not enforced strict enough in NCOWS in my opinion. The rules specifically state that the forward part of the trigger guard is to be captured in the holster.

[Slowhand Bob]

Red Cent, I see holsters that are loosely considered California Slim Jims that use the techniques your exhibit.  Not my definition but more people disagree with me than agree.  Tandy marketed a packet of patterns with the fold over belt loop that were titled CSJs and it is common to do so now??  My interpretation would make yours a Mexican Loop variation and the Slim Jim would have a belt loop sewed on, top and bottom.   

[Camano Ridge]

Red, in all my research. Several books, old pictures, museums, reading Chuck Burrows posts etc. Nothing would lead me to believe that was a Mexican loop everything I have seen called a Mexican loop has a skirt as an integral part of the holster with loops around the holster to the skirt. I suppose you could call yours a loopless, skirtless variation of a Mexican loop. However I don't think you would have seen any cowboy packing it until the 1950's. When you make something you can call it what ever you want and if enough peiople belive that is what it is then that is what it is. But few purists are going to accept it. Don't mean to sound like a MExican Loop snob.

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

So we have now returned to the beginning.  Does Mexican loop refer to the belt loop on a one piece holster?  Does Mexican loop refer to the loops that hold the bucket to the skirt?  Does Mexican loop refer to the loops holding the bucket to the skirt and the holster covers the part of the trigger guard?

I always believed it was the final one some thing along the lines of the cover picture on Packing Iron.

[ChuckBurrows]

Originally the term Mexican Loop was applied to a holster made all in one - pouch and skirt - from one piece of leather where the main seam of the pouch was sewn and then slits were cut into the skirt to hold the pouch in place which when folded over and slipped into the loops formed the belt loop.

That holster on the cover of Packing Iron shows a slight variant on the original Mexican Loop in that it has a hump on the main seam that gets placed between the loops - it is and was known as the Cheyenne style since it originated in Cheyenne, Wy and was first developed by famed makers such as Frank Meanea and J. S. Collins in the 1870's.

Later the name was also applied to those holsters made in a similar manner only instead of having slits cut in the skirt, one or more loops were riveted to the skirt for the pouch to pass through. While there are the Hollywood style holsters )aka buscadero rigs) that have a buckled strap for holding the pouch to the skirt, most historians do not consider them Mexican loops.

What some folks apply the name to is far from the classic Mexican Loop - the holster pictured above by Red Cent in no way shape or form resembles a traditional Mexican loop holsters or any other pre-1900 holster - if anything it's more of a heavily customized Slim Jim adapted for fast draw, first time this style showed up was by makers in the 1950's.

[Red Cent]

Other rules in CFDA are of questionable nature and interpretation.

Apparently, Cal is not concerned about the "real" Mexican loop holster or his definition differs from ours. I have had the same question bouncing around in the head since I built the holster.

Bob Mernickle builds them like this also. 'Course Bob and Cal are thick as thieves and are good friends. And both have won the World Fast Draw championship.

http://www.mernickleholsters.com/cfd/cfd1r1.html

[Camano Ridge]

Interesting excerpts from the CFD rule book.

"Our equipment represents the time period between Samuel Colt's invention of the Colt .45 Peacemaker in 1873 and 1899, the hey-day of the American Old West. The spirit of our game is that competitors must use six-guns that were commonly used in the late 1800s time frame. See the equipment section for the appropriate firearms that can be used in Cowboy Fast Draw©.
The western holster was also heavily impacted by Hollywood and then much further by the competitive Sport of Fast Draw itself throughout the 20th Century. Historical holster terminology and evolution have been very hard to define, since many experts have conflicting views and interpretations. We have done our best to draw clear lines in order to keep holsters and belts designs as period correct as possible, while not being so strict to limit reasonable interpretations and cosmetic embellishments."

Page 16 shows a drawing of a holster with a skirt and a loop holding the holster to the skirt. And says that on Mexican drop loop holsters you can put the flash deflector between the holster and the skirt.

Again another excerpt from the CFD rule book:
"While there may be some difference of opinions on time frames of certain holsters, we accept the fine book Packing Iron - Gunleather of the Frontier West- by Richard C. Rattenbury as the standard we base our rules upon."

Could not find Reds holster in Packing Iron

It is possible that they are interpeting it to be a variant of the Mexican loop because of the one piec construction folding over to form the belt loop.

Looking in four different books including Packing Iron define Mexican loop as " Formed from a single piece of pattern cut leather, the holster portion ws folded over vertically and sewn along it's main seam to create the body or pouchfor the revolver. The full back panel (typically cut with 2, 4, 6 slitsdepending on length) was folded down horizontally, forming a spacious belt loop and contoured skirt behind the holster body. THe pouch was then passed through or dropped through the the slits, creating one or more integeral loops.That secured the bosy and back skirt as one unit."

In talking to the Curator at the Autery, this is the defenition they use when labeling something as a Mexican loop. They recognize the variants such as  the Dodge City, Cheyene, T strap (Jock Strap) etc. as Mexican loop holster because they share they all have the atributes of a Mexican loop which are the one piece holster and skirt construction with loops that hold the holster body to the skirt.

Sorry to be long winded. Again this is the supposed historical defenition of a Mexican Loop holster.

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

A huge thanks to everyone that took the time to respond.  I have always used the term as one piece and slots cut into the skirt.  I then individually recognized each of the variants as described above by Camano Ridge.

It is not my intention to contradict the CFDA on their definition, but wanted to be sure I was not wrong for my own participation.

[Horseapples]

Perhaps the spirit of the 1880's applies to more than the loop and skirt construction, somewhere above capturing the trigger guard was also mentioned.  How about the form fit of the holster construction, close to the revolver without wide open stiffeners, the high throat recurve, sitting high on the belt not canted or dropped below it? All of these things add to the look of the period Mexican loop.