MY NEW CIMARRON SPENCER 56-50 WILL NOT FEED HELP!!!

[Wolf Killer]

Hello Lads,
I thought I would try asking again, I just received my new from Cimarron Spencer in 56-50
I loaded a number of rounds in new Starline brass with lyman 515139 sizes to 512 and seated to 1.515 OAL with a good roll crimp over the front band.

The rifle will not feed any rounds. The action opens, and stays open in a jammed position and the only way to chamber a round is to really bang the action closed which cuts a divot into the nose of the bullet, and is obviously not good for the gun.

After doing a lot of playing around, I found that just one round in the magazine would chamber smoothly.
I then tried to cycle the rifle without the magazine tube in the rifle.
I loaded 8 rounds in the butt and pointed the rifle down to let gravity feed the rounds.
and by golly the rifle cycled and chambered all 8 rounds like a well tuned 92 winchester, all ejected by tipping rifle to the side.

I cannot figure this one out, it appears for some reason, the pressure of the magazine spring tube is forcing the nose of the next round in line into the bolt chamber/lifter?

Anyone have an idea as to what's going on here and how to fix this without the back to Cimarron AS?

I like single shot rifles, and own three sharps, but this is supposed to be a repeater.

Thanks,

Wolf Killer

DOnald Bowman

[Two Flints]

Wolf Killer,

This was a reply posted by SSS member Blair in your last thread.  Did you read it?  I am posting it again . . .

Wolf Killer,

It can be difficult to diagnosis a problem without seeing the arm in action. But I will give it a try.

My first thought is that your cartridge OAL is a bit short. Much of this can come from our use of flat nosed bullets in the center fire Spencer's. (original bullets were rather pointed)

This allows the "next" cartridge in the mag to come into the receiver, perhaps far enough that the breech block is trying to close on almost the full diameter of the bullet. You want it to close on the rounded portion of the flat nose bullet. The breech block will more easily push the "next" cartridge back into the magazine on closing. This is what is causing the dings on the bullet.
Try seating your bullet out a little farther during your reloading (I can't tell you how much, you will have to experiment with OAL)

Simplest explanation;
The slightly longer OAL will also allow the cartridge stop to stop the forward movement of the cartridge (being loaded) and help prevent The "next" round form coming to far into the receiver.

I hope this helps.
My best,

Blair

[Two Flints]

Wolf Killer,

Also take a read of this link:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,34584.msg445403.html#msg445403

Two Flints

[Blair]

Wolf Killer,

Have you considered extending your cartridge "over all length" (OAL) from 1.515 or 1.525 to something like 1.615 or 1.625?
Bullet shape and/or design can make a big difference in the OAL and function within the Spencer action.
This was the point of my earlier reply!
Blair

[French Jack]

If by chance you are loading more than 7 rounds in the tube for the 56-50, you have too many in the magazine.  

[Wolf Killer]

Thanks for the answers,
No, 7 rounds only.
I loaded the rounds at 1.515, as most of the info I was finding here, on other sites, and the Armi Sport manual listed this as the OAL suggested for the Lyman bullet.

I will have to fire off the rounds I loades single shot, or pull the spring and gravity load the rounds from the magazine, as a inertia bullet puller will not fit the fat 50 case.

I will load up some more rounds later on out to 1.625 and then back them off to see if I get one that will work.

I will post back with the results

[Ibgreen]

Might I suggest pulling a loaded magazine out a little (decompress the spring) and see if it feeds.  A replacement magazine spring can be trimmed to lessen pressure?  I preface this by saying I have no experience with reproductions.  Nor did I stay at a Holiday Express last night.

[Wolf Killer]

Hello Lads,
I tried the magazine trick to no effect.

I am using the lyman 515139 bullet, and even the Lyman cast bullet manual says 1.515 for OAL
Last night out of desperation, I started a round seated at 1.65 without a crimp and worked down .05 at a time  to get a round to chamber with the magazine tube in place.

When I hit 1.55 the rounds started to load. The first two rounds have to be thrown hard, then the rest skip in like a marlin 336. A little rough, but they cycle without damage the bullet nose. They do get a mark from the shell holder though. IF I had an extra mag spring, I think I would cut an inch off and see how that works.

I have loaded about 60 plinking rounds with 8 grains of unique, a load I found on the forums which lists it at 750 fps. I am not expecting much accuracy as I have 30 plus rounds with buggered noses, but I am going to send those to hell or Richmond.

Thanks to all for the input, Next I will work on the trigger and go over any rough spots. The trigger lets off at about 11 or 12 pounds, better than the 25 pounds I have heard about.

Wolf Killer,

Donald Bowman
I just want to shoot the hell out of this gun, and see if it settles down and starts to behave

[Wolf Killer]

Lads,
Firs off, thanks to all who have answered my post with help and suggestions. I went to my shooting area yesterday and shot 80 rounds through my Spencer. This is one of the most FUN guns I have fired in a long time. Even with the back asswards way to chamber a round, put hammer on half cock, lever a round, then full cock, then fire.
Seems tedious, but once you find a rhythm, you can really throw bullets down range.
This must have been demoralizing to the Confederate troops to go up agains a Company of these rifles, when you are muzzleloading and capping a single shot musket

With the Lyman 55139 bullet I have temporarily settled at 1.55 for an OAL in my new Cimarron Chiappi Spencer.
This length is feeding well except for the first round when loading 7 rounds in the magazine.
The first round has to be "jacked" in fast and with some force. The rest cycle smoothly if I throw the lever fast and not hesitate after the lever is  is opened.  I do get a mark on the bullet nose, but I am not sure where this is coming from, the magazine feed or the shell holder fingers.

I have sized at .513 in my Star sizer and have a beginning load of 8 grains of Unique lubed with Magma red. , At 50 yards I am getting a fairly accurate group of an average of 2.5", and considering the poor sight notch and the 12 pound trigger, this is acceptable  till I cut the rear sight notch into a partridge and lighten the trigger, and I think I can close up that group and then move it out to 100 yards

I believe I am having powder blow back, as I am getting a smoke streak on one side of the ejected cases.

I think I don't have enough pressure to fully expand the brass to make a tight seal. I am using unique right now, as it is one of the powders I have on hand that are compatible.
I have on hand in good quantity these powders, Unique, 2400, Accurate 5744, IMR 3031, 4198, 4895, I have one measly small can of Trail Boss and of course Scheutzen 2F of which I have 20 pounds

I am trying to develop a smokeless load first, then onto black

Do you men have any powder recommendations for what I have on hand? and a load that will expand the brass to seal the breech? Finding any other powder anywhere is becoming a fruitless search
I also just received the modified lee mould, but have not cast with it yet.

Any further Spencer help would be Appreciated

Thanks,

Wolf Killer

Donald Bowman

[El Supremo]

Hello:
Smokeless powder pressures can be double those of trad black powder loads using the same bullet and achieving the same velocities according to published Winchester tests.  Your Spencer may be warranted for safe smokeless loads, but if you are getting blowback with higher pressure smokeless, something is creating looseness that the pressure is not sealing.  Please be very careful increasing smokeless charges.  Check your chamber dimensions! 

Armi Sport Spencers have appeared with relatively large chambers.  The dilemma is that a large chamber may not be offset with less case sizing because then the bullet may be loose in the case.  Larry Romano of Romano rifle Company knows all about this issue and how to correct it.  If all you want is casual shooting, your current accuracy seems reasonable.  But, if you want your Armi Sport Cimmaron to be a tack driver, it may need his magic.  He's reworked many of these to the delight of N-SSA skirmishers.  Invest in a call to him. 
Regards, Kevin

[.56/50 Iron]

Hey, Don!
       Take a look up toward the top of the submissions for my "One and only load for my Spencer Carbine". I used a fairly common bullet, made it semi-hard (I used Wheelweights and Linotype, you could add tin to wheelweights, etc. if you don't have Lino.) and from there on it was trial and error. Don't necessarily believe "recommended lengths". It sounds that you are on the right track. Without fail, though, the part of the Spencer that "guides" the cartridge into the chamber will dig into and hold the round solidly jammed if you use soft lead. Interesting that when I finally got an original loaded cartridge to compare, the bullet showed a little "dig-in" marking near the nose, but the lead was hard enough and the cartridge chambered smoothly. THERE IS NO NEED TO FORCE THE LEVER CLOSED OR HIT IT ONE to get a round to chamber. Like I said, it looks like you are on the right track and I encourage you to put the time in. The Spencer is one of the smoothest feeding lever guns I have now, much smoother than some of the older Marlin levers I have. Contact me off-list if you like. I will eventually chronograph the load. I think this is about the only unknown I have to complete yet.
.56/50 Iron
Greg T.
thorsrig@centurylink.net

[Big Dave]

Hey Wolf, I had the same problem with mine in 44-40.  Like you, I noticed it fed fine without the magazine.  This led me to believe that the magazine spring was too long and was jamming the cartridges too far into the mechanism.  I cut off a couple of coils and it runs great now. Also use harder cast bullets.     Big Dave

[Crossdrawnj]

For what it is worth: I picked up a 56-50 Spencer for CW reenactmenting. I ran into the same problem. To make a long story short, my son figured our problem out. He purchased a Taylor's Spencer, in the same caliber, and had the same issue. We are using aluminum blanks and they would not cycle. He tried replacing the cartridge keeper spring by using one as close to the same size as the spring the carbine came with, but stronger. I think he got it from a friends spare parts box from an old mauser. He did have to sand down the plunger so the spring would fit, but not much at all. With the stronger spring in place, both of our Spencer Carbine repro's are running great.

Hope this helps. A friend of mine tried everything to get my gun to work: heavier follower, new spring. This worked. The stock keeper spring is just too weak.