92 failure to feed

[hp246]

I have a Navy Arms marked 1892.  Wile shooting, I noted the first round failure to feed.At first I thought I was short stroking the action, but when I cleaned it and worked it on the bench,I found that the follower does not consistently raise the cartridge up to position to chamber the round.This only happens on the first round.  Also doesn't consistently eject spent brass clear of the ejection port. Thoughts from the experienced guys here. Where is a good parts resource.

[Sagebrush Burns]

The most knowledgeable '92 guy around is Nate Kiowa Jones dba Steves Gunz in Port Arthur, TX.

[Rattlesnake Slim]

Most 92's are very sensative to cartridge overall length. You don't say what caliber you're shooting, but my .357 won't reliably feed anything under 1.50". It also doesn't like anything other than round nose flat point bullets. If you reload, you can experiment easy enough. If not, you can take a set of calipers into the store and check different brands to see which are longest. You also might check the cartridge stop to make sure that is not binding up or has a broken spring. That can cause the nose of one bullet to hang up on the following rim when the follower rises.

[hp246]

Most 92's are very sensative to cartridge overall length. You don't say what caliber you're shooting, but my .357 won't reliably feed anything under 1.50". It also doesn't like anything other than round nose flat point bullets. If you reload, you can experiment easy enough. If not, you can take a set of calipers into the store and check different brands to see which are longest. You also might check the cartridge stop to make sure that is not binding up or has a broken spring. That can cause the nose of one bullet to hang up on the following rim when the follower rises.

Good points.  The rifle is a .45 Colt.  Before this started occurring, I shot about 400 rounds through the gun without incident.  The rounds put through the gun without incident included 230 gr RN reloads, 230 gr Semi wadcutter reloads and 250 gr Winchester 250 gr RNFP.  Like I said all feed reliably without incident.

In retrospect, the problem started up after I had an issue with loading the magazine.  One round went in sideways and and I had to work quite a bit to get it into the magazine.  I think you are onto something with a binding or broken spring, as the follower carrier just does not consistently pop up as it should.  I've worked on plenty of pistols and long guns, but no background with lever guns, and would like to have some ideas before I delve further into this thing.  Thanks for the reply Rattlesnake Slim.

Additional, was messing with it tonight.  cleaned it up as well as i could without dis-assembly.  Noticed that the carrier is right up against the inside of the frame.  Wondering if it is catching?  Is it supposed to be centered?  If so, is there an adjustment?

[Rattlesnake Slim]

I believe your Navy Arms was made by Rossi. Here is some good info on disassembly and tuning if you want to tackle it yourself. The 92 has quite a few parts and is moderately complicated, but I have had my original Winchester 1892 apart without any problems by carefully following similar guides. Here is one source for instructions, a google search for "1892 disassembly instructions" will turn up more. http://marauder.homestead.com/Rifles.html. If you have basic mechanical skills and a good set of hollow ground screwdrivers and some punches you should be OK.

[hp246]

Chatted with Nate Kiowa Jones today.  He gave me some ideas.  Great guy.  Much information to share.

[Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks]

hp246-

As stated by Rattlesnake Slim... Navy Arms probably a Rossi.  And if so... a Rossi is a Rossi regardless who the distributor is and the parts are all interchangable by caliber.  Braztech in Florida has parts and they are fairly fast on shipping.  I have had much better results with a gentleman down in Alabama @ M&M Gunsmithing his name is Mike McClellan easy to work with and he is very reliable and he normally stocks a lot of parts for the Rossi.  His website is  http://www.mmgunsmithing.com .

If the carrier is not going all the way up when you work the lever. The carrier does not have a spring, it is raised by the curl on the lever, maybe there is a burr or something (crud) keeping the carrier from going all the way up as it is suppose to I would suggest FULL DISASSEMBLY and see if there are binding problems where lever curl meets with the carrier to raise it. Another place to check is the LOADING GATE. On the backside of the loading gate there is a stud. If that stud is broken or not correct you will have feed problems. You might want to check out the side rails (where the bolt slides) If someone has done an action work on the rifle the rails may be causing a problem as you describe, this happens with a lot of the 38/357 calibers. This can be corrected by shimming behind the rails to correct the spacing.

Another person stated that the '92 is very OAL SENSITITIVE and this is very true. Make sure your loads are OAL correct. Most '92's require very little maitenance (unless you shoot the holy black).  After a match I just spray the inside of the action with brake cleaner and lever several times and then let it dry and oil.. then clean the bore.  I only fully disassemble the '92 once a year to fully clean it, unless the rifle gets drenched in a downpore at a match. 

I hope this helps... I had a similiar problem as you describe... my problem was the stud on the backside of the loading gate broke off (factory flaw)... replaced the loading gate with a new one... problem solved. 

[hp246]

Tom,
that is basically what Nate Kiowa Jones told me.  He went into a bit more detail related to chamber size, but basically said to try tear down and very thorough cleaning first, checking for broken parts.

[Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks]

hp246-

Do not know IF your Rossi '92 has had "action work" or not.  A suggestion for the carrier... Rossi has two different carriers for the 45LC.  One carrier is made so that the RIGHT SIDE is all straight with no cut out. The 2nd Carrier they make has a cutout for the stud that is on the backside of the loading gate. I have found that the carrier that is straight with no cut out sometimes will not clear the stud on the backside of the loading gate... and if that happens the carrier will not rise to its full length causing you feeding problems. Most Rossi's ROB lever like a Army M60 tank. They are not smooth and it sounds like everything is grinding inside.  I have heard everything from fill the receiver full of tooth paste and lever the rifle till your arm falls off.. I do it different. Polish the carrier top and Right side till it looks like a new Chrome bumper reassemble and lever, disassemble and look at the carrier. If you see marks on the right side you know it is grading against the frame. Remove more metal and repolish. Keep doing this till you get no grading marks on the carrier right side when levering. IF the carrier is binding ANYWHERE it will cause levering and feeding problems. Depending on what type carrier you have MAKE SURE the LOADING GATE STUD on the backside is not hampering the up and down movement of the carrier.  If you have not changed out your springs and gone to weaker springs, you should, the '92 is more fun to shoot after it has had action work. You can short stroke the rifle, but you would not be happy with the cost involved to do it, it is not cost effective. Take some old panty hose and after you fully disassemble the rifle run the panty hose inside the receiver to check for burrs and snags. Rub all the moving parts with the panty hose and check for burrs and snags.  Hope this helps.

[hp246]

Got the 92 up and running today.  I thought I'd share what I discovered in case anyone else has similar problems.  Here is what I think was going on.  I bought the gun used.  The guy I bought it from claimed it had recently been cleaned and lubricated by a gunsmith.   When I pulled the magazine spring, it was coated in rust, and the magazine tube was rusted.  There was debris inside the action that almost looked like paper shredded inside.  I inspected all of the parts including the loading gate.  There were no breaks.  After I made Nate Kiowa Jones' recommended modifications, I cleaned thoroughly, lubricated and got it back together. I took it back out and it was 90% better, but had one problem when the 10th round got sideways again.  I hadn't originally gut the magazine spring, because it was about 3-4 cartridge lengths sticking out of the tube.  I went back and cut off about 2 inches of spring and it now functions flawlessly.  I think that part of the problem was when that 10th round is loaded the spring was causing that last round to jam sideways adding to the problem with the rusted spring.   

[Tater Pickens]

I too was having a feeding problem on my original 92 carbine.

Turns out the right hand cartridge guide screw had backed out just ever so slightly allowing the cartridge guide on the right hand side to prevent the carrier from coming up high enough to feed the cartridge in to the bore. I tightened all the screws on the receiver and it feeds flawlessly now.

Make sure all your screws are good and secure cowboys.

Tater Pickens

[Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks]

hp246-

Glad that you solved the feed problem... a suggestion... Clean all of the rust out of the magazine tube. (A brass or bronze 12 gauge SG brush does very well) After all the rust is out... replace the factory spring and bullet follower with stainless steel spring and follower... a '73 spring and follower for 45LC will work fine... you might want to cut the stainless steel spring like you did on the other... the stainless will not rust like the factory spring. Once you get the action slicked, the '92 is a fun gun to shoot. If you shoot CAS Stages...just remember to go all the way forward with the lever... but I am sure you know that.

[Paladin UK]

Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks  says...

You can short stroke the rifle, but you would not be happy with the cost involved to do it, it is not cost effective.

I thought it was NOT possible to short stroke a #92 regardless of cost 

Please pard, tell me more about short stroking a #92

Paladin (What would like ta short stroke his #92  ) UK

[hp246]

hp246-

Glad that you solved the feed problem... a suggestion... Clean all of the rust out of the magazine tube. (A brass or bronze 12 gauge SG brush does very well) After all the rust is out... replace the factory spring and bullet follower with stainless steel spring and follower... a '73 spring and follower for 45LC will work fine... you might want to cut the stainless steel spring like you did on the other... the stainless will not rust like the factory spring. Once you get the action slicked, the '92 is a fun gun to shoot. If you shoot CAS Stages...just remember to go all the way forward with the lever... but I am sure you know that.

Tom,
I did clean out the magazine tube, then sprayed it with some Gibbs lubricant, which does a very good job getting into the metal and leaving a protective residue.  I used one of Kiowa Nate Jones magazine followers.  I think I will stick with the stock magazine spring (which I also coated with Gibbs).  I've never had luck with stainless magazine springs. 

[Paladin UK]

Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks  says...

You can short stroke the rifle, but you would not be happy with the cost involved to do it, it is not cost effective.

I thought it was NOT possible to short stroke a #92 regardless of cost   

Please pard, tell me more about short stroking a #92

Paladin (What would like ta short stroke his #92  ) UK

[hp246]

Just wanted to post an update.  First match after the upgrades was flawless.  The last match ended up with some different issues (A live round popping out of the gun and another fail to feed).  I sent an email to Steve Young (AKA Nate Kiowa Jones).  Really wasn't expecting a response, but got one including pictures.  After making the fix he recommended, had another issue pop up with rounds getting caught between the magazine follower and the loading gate.   Steve went me another picture and possible fix.    I am really impressed with Steve.  Very knowledgeable and very willing to help out.  Thanks Steve

[Paladin UK]

Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks  says...

You can short stroke the rifle, but you would not be happy with the cost involved to do it, it is not cost effective.

I thought it was NOT possible to short stroke a #92 regardless of cost 

Please pard, tell me more about short stroking a #92

Paladin (What would like ta short stroke his #92    ) UK

[hp246]

Thomas (Tom) Horn aka James Hicks  says...



I thought it was NOT possible to short stroke a #92 regardless of cost 

Please pard, tell me more about short stroking a #92

Paladin (What would like ta short stroke his #92    ) UK

Paladin,
I don't think there is a short stroke kit for the 92 like there is for the 66 & 73s.  But, you can in inadvertently short stroke it buy not fully functioning the lever all the way down before locking the lever in the upright position.  I know, I've done it.  A habit I have to try to break.  It causes a failure to feed.

[GunClick Rick]

Short stroking a 92,

Cut the stock down ( he who has short arms)

I have an EMF 92 a bit stiff out of the box,put a big loop on it,slicked right up,i have no idea why