Need advice on stain for belt

[onegunred]

Here soon I am making a gun belt for a holster that I have.  The holster is a Fiebings Saddle Tan color and treated with neatsfoot oil.  Since I am a greenhorn and know nothing about dye which Fiebings should I use ?  The alcohol base seems to be the toughest to use, then there is the dye for schools, hospitals and etc, then the Antique dye.  I've watched self help videos and read a number of posts.  I am not big on 'fancy' or 'period correct', just plain, simple and rugged.  Any suggestions ?  Thanks, Jerry

[rickk]

The institutional dye is water based and does not penetrate as well as the alcohol based dye. I personally use the alcohol based dye 95% of the time. It is pretty easy to use. I apply it with a wool dobber.

Also, and I admit I don't use it all that often, if you are in doubt, dampening the leather with dye prep first will help deal with any areas that might not want to take dye. If you do a large piece you may find a few spots that just don't want to accept the dye, and the dye prep usually cut thru those spots. When I find those spots myself, I add dye prep over the dye and try to rub it in. It get messy doing it that way, but it has saved botched jobs a couple of times. Most of the time it really isn't needed so I don't usually use it before hand unless I know a particular hide has already given me some troubles.

If I wanted a lighter shade I would probably be more likely use the dye prep right up front. Any attempt at fixing a blotchy job usually results in things getting darker.

You might sense a bit of wishy-washyness in my procedures. I don't do checklists well. For the most part I just do what I feel like doing at the moment and it usually works out well.

Be aware that neatsfoot oil darkens things a bit, so you want to shoot for a lighter color than what the holster looks like right now. also, neatsfoot (and time) help smooth out a dye job as well, so don't panic one bit if it looks a little splotchy at first.

You will want to seal the dye as well, unless you like the dye rubbing off all over everything the belt touches. There are several choices. I use Resolene myself. I pour a bit on an already damp (water) paper towel, effectively diluting it. I usually apply a couple of thin coats to the finished side and couple or more thick coats to the rough split side. I coat the split side even if I did not dye it for moisture protection.

if you have some leather scraps, a couple of practice sessions with those first will increase your confidence. It is really not all that complex of a process but like anything, the first couple times is confusing and filled with tension.

[rdstrain49]

If you have a Tandy or Leather Factory near by, take advantage of their expertise.  I use the oil base, but that is what I am comfortable with.  Be cautious with any oil or leather preservative, most will soften leather, perhaps ok for a belt not so much for a holster.  Properly applied the oil dye won't rub off once cured.

[onegunred]

Gentlemen, thank you for your responses.  I'm a bit nervous about this.  I do not have a Tandy within 130 miles.  Can I thin the oil/alcohol stain with alcohol apply the stain( dye ) and then rub a small amount of neatsfoot oil over it as a finish and call it good or do I have to get a regular finish like resolene  ?   Thanks, Jerry

[Camano Ridge]

Fiebings Pro oil dye is an alcahol based dye. It works well also. Important if you are using a dauber or sponge pat you applicator on a paper towel or scrap leather lightly to get rid of excess dye. Many times people will dip the dauber or sponge in the dye and wil imediately press it to the leather. What happens is that you push out excess dye and where yo started is going to have a dark bloch of dye.

There is nothing wrong with a light application what I call a finger tip application of neats foot oil to belt or holster. In fact many reccomend doing it right after dying as dying tends to dry the leather a little and takes some of the nutrients. I have been making holsters for forty years and have not ruined one with neatsfoot oil. I also use it on my concealed carry holsters which are detail molded and baked to harden. THe neatsfoot has never softened one of them. Many makers including Chuck Burrows and Will Ghormely, Cliff Fendely and other notable makers use neatsfoot oil so it tends to be a personal choice rather then a should or shouldn't. If you do use neatsfoot oil make sure it is 100% Neatsfoot oil and not the compound.

  Just seen someone else posted as I was typing. If I duplicate any of the response my apologies.

[Camano Ridge]

Yes to cutting the dye with alcahol to get a lighter color. I recomend testing on scrap leather to get the color you desire. Make sure it is the same leather the holster will be made of. Yes you can use neatsfoot shortly after dying. However Neatsfoot oil is not a finish it is more of a treatment. FOr finish you can use acrylics like resolene, super sheen, even Mop n Glo cut 50/50  with water. However most of the time I use Montana Pitch Blend or Skidmores cream. They are made of natural products oils, beeswax and pine pitch in the Montan pitch blend. Some peopl use ther own recipies. Again Neatsfoot oil by itself is not a finish

[dwight55]

Camano pretty well summed it up.  

A long time ago, . . . I learned that the process of wool scrap dying, . . . dauber dying, . . . brush gying, . . . was not for me.  I  never could get it as consistent and clean looking as I wanted, . . . plus it does not penetrate the way I want it to.

I dip dye.  Period.  Virtually no exceptions (see drawing below).  After the belt is about 90 percent dry, I begin to bend the belt, NEVER backwards, . . . always with the hair side up on the outside of the bend.  I will bend it the full length rolling it about the diameter of a golf ball.  

Oh, and never dip dye and just hang it up by one end to dry, . . . the dye will migrate from the up end to the down end, . . . making a light to dark belt from one end to the other.

I then let it finish drying, . . . dry, . . . 24 hours minimum.  I look at the product, . . . sometimes neatsfoot oil, . . . sometimes not, depending on the "need" evidenced by the leather.  

BUFF it good with a washcloth.  Buff it hard, get all the leftover pigment from the belt.  

Burnish the edge again (did it once before dying).  

Add finish coat (Resolene 95% of the time, cut 50/50) and about 3 hours after applying the Resolene, . . . do the bend thing again.  Again, rolling it in your hands so you get a diameter roll about the size of a golf ball.  Hang up to dry.  I

I dip dye mostly because it is predictable, uniform, and I do not have to play with it to get it to act right.  

May God bless,
Dwight

[Cliff Fendley]

I'm with dwight, I dunk mine and then follow with neatsfoot oil.

[Graveyard Jack]

Extra virgin olive oil is very much endearing itself to me.....for treating leather.

[onegunred]

Extra virgin olive oil is very much endearing itself to me.....for treating leather.

I have used "EVOO" on stuff before and the color result is good but the leather becomes a bit too limber.

[Trailrider]

I use Fiebing's "spirit (alcohol) base dye, applied with a piece of lamb's wool. After the dye has dried completely...24 hours or more, depending on the humidity, apply a LIGHT coating of LEXOL Leather Conditioner (R), wiping off the excess with a soft cloth, and allowing it to dry thoroughly.  Now I know I will get a lot of static over this next statement, but I am speaking from making custom leather products professionally for nearly 40 years: NEVER use Neatsfoot Oil on holsters, belts, etc.!  Neatsfoot oil was intended to prevent cracking of the hooves of horses and cattle. Animal hooves are living tissue, and grow back. Tanned leather is not. Use Neatsfoot oil  enough on a holster or belt, and eventually it will destroy the fibers of the leather! Yes, Lexol has some neatsfoot oil in it, BUT it has other chemicals in it that preserve the leather, softening alcohol-dyed leather just enough without damaging the leather fibers.  Don't overdo the application of Lexol either! I use a spray bottle to apply it. But I apply it and wipe off any excess. Best of luck on your project.

[Camano Ridge]

Trailrider, I will not give you any static. We all base our knowledge on what we have learned from others and from personal experiences. I made my first holster in 1973. I used neatsfoot oil on it because that is what my grandfather told me to use and had been told to use it by his Grandfather. I do not dispute that using to much like anything else can be harmful to the leather. Hell they tell me to much Jack Daniels can be harmful to my liver so I use it in moderation just like the neatsfoot oil. What I am curiuos about is where you find the reference to neatsfootoil. I know that original neatsfootoil was made from animal hooves and with the exception of one or two producers is now made primarily from lard. Every reference I have ever looked at and every catalog I have seen it in old and new says it is a leather treatment. Dictionarys, wikpedia (and we know they can't be wrong it's on the internet ) etc. all say the same thing. I have not found any place where it says it is for animal hooves and not for leather. If you know where it is referenced I would be interested in reading it. It never hurts to learn something new.

[Trailrider]

Camano Ridge,
I wish I could recall where I first saw this information. It has been a long time ago. I'll try to look in a number of references is my library, but it may take some time, if that is where I have the reference. One reason your grandfather and his used Neat's foot oil (correct spelling, which I didn't do in my previous post) on all sorts of leather, especially including rifle slings is because that was all they had through a bunch of wars. Nowadays, the bad properties of Neat's foot oil have been significantly changed by the inclusion of silicones and other additives (which is what Lexol Leather Conditioner contains).  The first holster I made "professionallly" (I got paid, rather than my own gear) was for my section OIC in the Air Force back in 1968. I recommended using Lexol about once a year or if the leather had been wet by rain or snow. I ran into him about four years ago at a reunion, and asked about his holster and belt. He replied that he was still using it, following my care advice and it was in good shape. He would wear it while walking around his farm. I guess that's about the best aging program reference I can relate, except that since 1975, when I registered my trademark, I have had only one (1) kickback, and that was from a gent who soaked his belt in Lexol immediately on receiving it, and must have immersed it in a bucket full of the stuff and let it soak overnight. Needless to say, the belt was ruined!

I'll look for any reference, but it may take awhile.  Best of luck, Pard!

[Camano Ridge]

Trailrider, thank you. I don't mean to make you do a lot of looking around. I was just curioous. I have used Neat's foot oil for better then 40 years. I have never had one holster come back to me for anything possibly related to oil or conditioners. I still have the original Roy Baker pattern Pancake holster I made myself in 1975 when i worked as a bodyguard and it is still a servicable holster.

[Trailrider]

Trailrider, thank you. I don't mean to make you do a lot of looking around. I was just curioous. I have used Neat's foot oil for better then 40 years. I have never had one holster come back to me for anything possibly related to oil or conditioners. I still have the original Roy Baker pattern Pancake holster I made myself in 1975 when i worked as a bodyguard and it is still a servicable holster.

Well, sir, I don't claim to be the absolute authority on the subject. We are both have a lot of experience using our own techniques and favorite products, and I guess others will have to take their choice as to the processes. There is another product that I have used, when available, and that is Care4. From the look, the smell and the information on the container, I'd almost bet it came from the same vat as Lexol Leather Conditioner, just a different brand. But, of course, I can't swear that is a fact. I glanced at John Bianchi's, "Blue Steel and Gun Leather" last night, but didn't have time to go through it completely. I do know he recommends using BagKote to seal leather. I use that to stabilize black dyes, and sometimes on brownish dyes, but that is not for the same purpose as Lexol. I'll continue to look as time permits.


Your obedient servant,

[Camano Ridge]

I have actually used care 4 as well. Joh Bianchis Video on making holsters shows him dunking everything belt and holster in Neat's Foot oil.

Sorry guys for hijacking the thread.

[Cliff Fendley]

I'm not certain that information is correct concerning Neatsfoot oil made from hooves. I was always told it was rendered from the shin bones and feet.

My grandfather used it and I carried on using pure Neatsfoot oil and have used neatsfoot oil on saddles, bridles, gun gear, ball gloves and all kinds of leather gear that has been around since before I was born and it is still in fine condition today.

I have to wonder that if the damage reported done to leather with neatsfoot was done with neatsfoot oil COMPOUND and not pure Neatsfoot oil. If you look at so many cans from Fiebings from back during the 20th century that is what was marketed a lot. Almost every vintage can for Neatsfoot oil says compound on it. I even still have an old can of it that was bought by my grandfather not knowing the difference back in the day. Heck maybe that was all he could get in town at the time.

[Camano Ridge]

Cliff, you are correct my missenterpitation. It is feet not hooves that were used.


Neatsfoot oil is a yellow oil rendered and purified from the shin bones and feet (but not the hooves) of cattle. "Neat" in the oil's name comes from an old name for cattle. Neatsfoot oil is used as a conditioning, softening and preservative agent for leather. In the 18th century, it was also used medicinally as a topical application for dry scaly skin conditions.