Can a BP Pistol be dry fire for practice ?

[BobbyF]

Hi Pards, and Happy Holidays to You all,

     I should receive my 1860, steel Army, from Cabela's in two days. My first BP firearm. To test it's  functionality and to practice, can I dry fire this pistol ? I was thinking if I removed the nipples, I would not cause any damage. Am I way off base ? As always I greatly appreciate any info  or ideas you might have. Thanks again--BobbyF

[rifle]

BobbyF,
No damage to the guns hammer or cones with the nipples/cones out and fired dry.
Practice though can damage the gun since coming from Cabelas it'll be a Pietta brand.
Those have nice actions and all but......the cylinder steel is relatively soft compared to the bolt that stops the cylinder from turning. The timing of the guns is usually with the bolt hitting the edge of the cylinder notches with the overly stiff trigger/bolt spring causing damage to the edge of the notch and the ramp/lead-in before the notch.
Some metal at the edge of the notch will be peened into the notch and cause damage where it hits and make the notch less wide causing the bolt to not fit well and thus causing more damage. Sometimes the bolts head comes from the factory a little too wide for the cylinders notch too. It should be checked before firing or working the action much at all.
Simple temporary ,or permanent, fix to not cause the damage is to loosen the trigger/bolt spring screw three quarters to a full turn. That's done by taking off the grips backstrap then loosening the mainspring and removing the trigger guard to get to the trigger/bolt spring screw.
Not a real biggy.
You have to learn to disassemble the gun completely to clean the powder residue from inside the frame after firing the gun anyhow.
If you loosen the trigger/bolt spring screw a full turn and the cylinder doesn't stop when the guns cycled fast then don't cycle it too fast or just tighten the screw a little at a time till it's tight enough to let the bolt stop the cylinder.
You have to be cautious  or careful trying at first so if the cylinder can skip past the bolt stop you can tighten the screw a little and not get damage from the skip.
The permanent fix is to lighten the bolt leg of the trigger/bolt spring carefully so when the trigger/bolt spring screw is tight the bolt leg of the spring isn't too stiff.
You can file that side of the spring or get a "Wolf" trigger/bolt spring that's lighter than the stock spring the gun comes with.
If you're going to shoot the gun in Cowboy Competition and really run the gun fast then the Wolf spring may be too light.
Anywhoooo......if you cock the gun much before the trigger/bolt spring is lightened there will likely be some damage to the cylinder. Lighten the trigger bolt spring on the bolt side before you work the action at all.
It isn't a bad idea to order a spare cylinder for $50 from Cabelas since that's a good price comparatively speaking.
Piettas are good guns relatively speaking. I have several. The Remington models don't have the trigger/boltspring problem since the geometry of the relationship between the hammers cam and the spring is a better relationship mechanically speaking.
Know what I mean Hombre?
Now.... about the bolt hitting on the edge of the cylinder notch. That's the action being a little out of time.
The fix is to shorten the bolt side of the trigger bolt spring leg so the bolt hits the cylinder a little bqck from the edge of the cylinders notch. Shortening the bolt side of the spring where it rides the hammer cam lets the bolt return to the surface of the cylinder a little earlier and not as close to the cylinder notch edge. Having the whole width of the bolts head hit back to the cylinder a little before the edge of the cylinders notch is what you want.
Know what I mean?
The dry firing with the cones/nipples out of the gun isn't the way to do the gun up permanently naturally even though the gun needn't be made dry fire safe.
Making the gun dry fire safe will be good for the hammer not being banged up with impressions from the caps/cones over time.
Making the hammer dry fire safe is simply a matter of stoning the hammer face back some so the hammer never hits the cones/nipples but stops against the frame just so many .001's inch from the cone/nipples. Close enough to still hit the caps to ignite them but not close enough to hit the empty cones/nipples.
After setting back the hammer face the right amount the notch in the face for the safty pins needs checked to be sure the safe still works properly.
The hammer needs re-hardened after the stoning also. Heating it red hot buried in a pile of casehardening compound for a minimum of 20 minutes to 30 minutes works well.
You'd have to decide if you want a trigger job done on the guns action before the hardening of the hammer so any stoning to the full or half cock notches of the hammer has those surfaces re-hardened too when the hammer face is re-hardened.
That's about it.
Now...you could go on to checking the alignment of the cylinder chambers to the center line of the bore...........    
That's my take or "opinion" on the subject. Not written in stone or anything unless you scratch the advise into your stone while working with the gun.

[Coffinmaker]

Wow ....... That was a serious read there Rifle.  Pretty spot on too.  Only argument i have is with the trigger/bolt spring screw and stuff.  Backing out that screw will just allow the screw to continue to back out.  Not a good thing.  Normally, I use the Pietta trigger/bolt spring as a "light" replacement in an action job.
As Rifle mentioned, the fit of the bolt to the cylinder notches must be addressed.  Next up is the timing.
And, when you finish all the work Rifle has mentioned, I still won't recommend dry fire with your Cap Gun.  Premature wear and parts breakage will be the norm and not necessarily fun.

Coffinmaker

[BobbyF]

Hi Rifle,
     Thank you for taking the time to type out that wonderfully detailed explanation  I printed it up and it's now page two in my BP Notebook.i should have the pistol in my hands tomorrow, I should then be able to follow your lesson plan. Thank you --BobbyF

[Blair]

Coffinmaker,

I very much agree.
While removing the cone/nipples is a good idea for dry firing the modern reproduction cap and ball revolvers, checking out the cylinder bolt stop and spring is not. Unless there should prove to be issue with this part of the timing/cycling of the action.
There is no reason to create additional problems for yourself unless these issues present themselves at the beginning.

My suggestion is not to dry fire any firearm that uses flat/leaf or "V" springs. But, that is only my suggestion.
My best,
Blair  

[Coffinmaker]

Blair,
Unfortunately, while Pietta quality has really improved, I've found the fit of bolt to cylinder to be ........ Ungood.  Usually the bolt head needs to be reduced.  Fortunately, barrel/arbor fit is usually spot on.

Coffinmaker

[Wolfgang]

Dry firing can be done by putting those little red "cap gun caps" on the nipples.   You'll have a nice little "pop" for the first six.  You can then dry fire about 12 more before it is necessary to put on new caps.   I did that some with my first Remington.  Dry firing at the bad guys in the westerns on TV. 

I also extensively practiced doing the "cylinder swap" . .. ie "Pale Rider" reloads a the same time.  I got very smooth at it.  People often ask me to show them how to do it.   I show them alright.  And they can't do it worth a damn.  I can do it smooth because I practiced it hundreds of times with that first '58.   

Have Fun . . . . 

[rifle]

Howdy Hombres!
I've found with the Piettas that the damage to the cylinder from the snap the trigger/bolt spring has and the resulting peens starts to happen right off the bat. The spring needs lightened on the bolt side and the bolt head needs fit to the cylinder notches in almost every case to not have disappointing damage to an otherwise very beautiful and wellmade cap&baller revolver.
Of course maybe things have changed at the manufacturers factory since I last helped someone fix a gun.
I recommend to follow the old saying,"better to be safe than sorry", and to not believe that old one about,"better late than never". 
That recommendation to loosen the trigger/bolt spring screw I noted above in my first reply??? There is enough tension to the spring after loosening it a turn or 3/4 turn to keep the screw from backing out anymore.
I recommend to use the spring screw loosening tip as a temporary fix because loosening the screw to the spring also lightens the trigger a little too.
Try stoning (or diamond file and polish) the bolt side leg of the spring to lighten it and leave the trigger side of it alone unless you want a lighter trigger pull.
The tension of the springs as they come from the factory is pretty good and I like a snappy spring ........as long as it's not like an old leaf spring from an old Ford pick-up truck like the Centaures (Belgian Colts) are from the box.

The problem isn't actually the springs tension. The problem is the softness of the steel in the cylinders where the hardness of the spring steel to the spring can dent/peen them.

I imagine for economy the cylinders are made from a steel alloy that is soft so the machining is quick and the tools for cutting ect.ect. wear less.
I doubt you'd find the same steel in the cylinders of the cartridge guns the manufacturers put out.
I'm fond of the Pietta guns. They have a perpensity for good barrels with the chance of having rifling grooves the same depth all around the inside of the barrel a good bet.
Some of the other manufacturers can have too many barrels with the rifling grooves a good bit deeper on one side of the inside of the barrel than the other making the gun shoot like a gun with a bad crown to the muzzle.
The fix fer that is to remove the muzzle crown and flat perpendicular the muzzle end so all the grooves erupt the gas simultaneously as should be. When there's a crown to a barrel with deeper grooves to part of the barrel compared to the other the gas erupts from one side more than the other and disrupts the balls flight to the target making it shoot more inaccuratly than if all the grooves were the same depth.
One prerequisite is to have the balls fit the barrels groove diameter well so all the grooves have lead ball fill them to the bottom.
Anywhoooo....I really like the fact that the Pietta guns (cap&ballers) have the arbors bottom in the barrels hole to set the thing right and the cylinder gap is steady the same after every re-instasllation of the barrels. That bottomed arbor would be hard to hold specs for in the machining process and I give Pietta credit for that.
The Colts last longer and stay fit better when the arbor is bottomed in the barrels hole when the wedge is tight. That bottom puts an extra point of contact to the barrels installation that is sorely needed. When the wedge has contact and the barrels lug has contact only the small space in the barrels arbor hole beteen barrel and arbor makes for a loose fit and movement when the gun fires whether or not it's apparent. It shows up in a premature wedge or barrel slot deformation peen.
The only thing better than the bottomed arbor is an arbor that has the very utmost minimum clearance between the arbor and the barrels hole. A tight arbor in the barrels hole makes for a much more solid movement free fit of barrel to frame.
Thankfully the Piettas have the fit of arbor to barrel hole minimized fairly well. They could be tighter in that area but they are rather close as they come from the box. That allows an extra point of contact between arbor and barrel right where the top of the beginning of the barrels hole contacts the arbor and makes a better locked up fit.
Hard to believe but a good tight fit arbor in the barrels hole is better than a bottomed arbor for locking the barrels tight when the wedge is tight. The extra contact lets the barrel go on and when the barrels bottom lug stops against the frame the wedge stops and the barrel can't be installed too far on and close the cylinder gap. The barrel will shoot lower and be more accurate when the arbor is tight in the barrels hole.
I'm rambling again.
Better surfice to say I like the Piettas. I don't like all the stamping on the side of the barrel though. Ugly and distracting it is fer sure. Just like the overly milled recess under the Navy Colt barrels to make room for the swing of the loading lever. Way too over done and too visible looking at the guns from a side view.
I have a hunch that the Uberti cap&ballers have the tolerance a little tighter between the arbor and the barrel hole but....I ain't seen many new Uberti's lately to assertain that .

[Noz]

Measure the width of the hammer channel in the frame of the gun. Cut a thick piece of leather that width and 1/2" long. Force that piece into the hammer channel. When the hammer falls it will be "caught" by the leather causing no damage to the hammer, frame or nipples.

I know, that's way too simple.

[BobbyF]

Hi Noz, great simple idea, thanks--BobbyF

[rifle]

That leather in the hammer channel idea is a "little" too simple.
The fact that the bolt leg has to get back on top the hammers cam so the second attempt to draw the hammer back isn't met with a locked up action should be mentioned.
Paying attention to the thickness of the "thick" piece of leather recommended is important so I'm takin the time to type this explanation out. I'll keep it simple  as I can and try not to "overreply".
I should try a reply though since a first timer cap&baller Hombre might get confused when the gun doesn't function with a leather too thick put in the hammer channel. The thickness of leather in the channel is important to working the action since too thick and the action will lock up.
The hammer has to go forward enough for the bolt leg that rides the hammer cam to get back on top the cam so the bolt will function next time around and get out of the cylinders lock notch so the hand can turn the cylinder. Knowing that .....the pistol operator may be able to realize that an attempt to force the action can damage the top end of the hand that is relatively soft.
Just tryin ta help.
Wonder how BobbyF likes his new cap&baller? Need any help figgerin if the arbor is bottomed right in the barrel? I started tellin folks bout a simple way to check that years ago and the idea has spread. Probably because it is really simple. Simple is good.
The Hombre with a new cap&baller for the first time may want to know a simple way to check where the bolt is hitting the lead-in to the cylinder notch to check that segment of the action cycle(without seeing it as a damage to the cylinder).
Any first timer may want to know the way to get the wedge out of the gun first time around since the Pietta wedges come from the box very difficult to get out of the gun.
First timer may want to know that the fouling builds rather quickly in a cap&baller and not know to clean after each cylinder full is fired before the gun gets inaccurate.
May want to know about one of the best things goin fer a cap&baller pistol/revolver is know how to make/buy/steal those things called lube pills/grease cookies to fix the fouling problem.
May want to know ,if the real Holy Black powder is not readily available, the Alliant Black MZ powder is easily gotten and is pretty danged good replica black powder.
I'm wonderin again. Later.

[BobbyF]

Hi again Rifle,
     First of all Happy NewYear. You cannot over reply in my opinion. Your reply is now page three in my BP notebook. I understand the leather thickness issue (now that I read it). I think I got the arbor fit test, turning the barrel 90 deg. And checking the fit with the frame. I had to tap out the edge on a '51 R/M conversion with a brass rod and credit card as a  cushion, I'll try the same . As for the bolt, I was hoping to see, hear or feel if is good.
     Question -- I read in "www.geojohn.org " to put the cleaning lube behind the ball  ( powder-lubed patch- lube-ball ). Thus keeping the ball from blowing out all of the lube/cleaning stuff. Makes sense to me, does it to you ?
     I'm holding it in my hand and although I won't get to shoot it till I get back out to NM, I love it. Fits my hand like a glove. Muchas, muchas gracias to you all- bobbyf

[Slowhand Bob]

I like Wolfgangs soution BUT I have not been able to find the little red 'capguards' anywhere for quite some time now.  I have even searched several sources for a suitable substitute with no luck.  The last ones I found were actually getting very pricey for an expendable anyhows!  I have not tried to use a regular cap and ball, I use a conversion for dry fire, but here is an idea that might work, try some brass upholstery tacks.  Even better would be an extra set of perhaps worn or otherwise damaged set of nipples with the aforementioned brass tacks inserted.  I am sure some provisions could be made to fit the shanks to the nipple holes.  Perhaps this is also something that the good fokes at 'SLix' could address, anyone know who to talk with??    

[Crow Choker]

I don't dry fire any of my firearms, be they modern or reproduction of the guns of yesteryear! The consequences of doing so aren't worth the price of satisfying my 'itchy' trigger finger. CC

[rifle]

BobbyF,
It works real well fer me to put a lube pill under the balls of a cap&baller revolver.
Melt beeswax,paraffin wax,tallow(or olive oil,Crisco, corn oil,lard,ect ect ect ) in equal amounts fer the lube/wax recipie and stir it up good.
Take a square cooking pan and pour in boiling water and then pour the lube recipie on that hot water. Cover the whole surface of the water with the wax/lube recipie(you'll figger how much to use when you see the thickness of the sheet of wax/lube you make).
Let the wax/lube cool and solidify on top the water and when it's solid enough remove the sheet of wax/lube and you'll have a sheet to punch lube pills/grease cookies from.
Make a punch to dothe punchingout of the lube pills.
Hardware stores have fer sale brass tubes. Get the size that closely matches ter chamber size of the gun. I fergit nut there'sa size that matches close to the size of the chambers.
Buy the next bigger size tube also. Why? I'll tell ya.
The smaller tube can fit inside the next bigger one perfectly.
Cut off and de-burr a short piece of the smaller tube(half inch or so) and solder it inside the bigger one with most or at least half the length of the smaller short piece sticking out the bigger one. Leave the bigger one the length it was/is.
Don't slobber the solder all over. Especially don't get any inside the punch tube yer makin.
When you use the tube you made fer punching out lube pills the inside needs to be smooth.
Pinch the ;ube pills from the sjeet of wax/lube you made using the small diameter end fer the punching.
The idea of the way the punch tube is made is...when wax pills are crammed in the smaller diameter end when punching them out of the wax/lube sheet and there is less small diameter tube so the pills pass thru it into the larger diameter tube and can pass thru it without any resistance that can squish them together too bad.
As the pills are punched they come out the top of the tube punch kinda stuck together in a row. They slide off each other easily.
Punchin the sheet of wax/lube the way the sheet was made makes all the "lube pills the same thickness".    About an eighth inch or even a lil bigger is good fer a thickness.
Put a lube pill under the ball on top the powder to help prevent problems with the black powder fouling. If you don't use the lube pills then at least put some lube like Crisco or a black powder lube over the balls in the chambers to help prevent chain fires.
You'll probably need a ramrod and a brush to clean the barrel when shooting and it's gets fouled badly. Fouling hurts the accuracy of the gun. Makes the cylinder harder to turn after awhile.
Lube pills help keep the barrel clean and help the cylinder turn free longer before the arbor needs wiped off and the inside of the cylinders center hole needs wiped out and then both lubed again. Lubed with black powder lube stuff or plain ole grease.
Yer gun is a good lookin one with that dark casehardening on the frame and all.. The 1860 Army may be my favorite one.
Need any help or have questions you can PM me here.
When you do the timing check and need to shorten the bolts leg a lil and all you may need a lil direction.
One thing with the Pietta bolts and timing and all is....making the bolt get out of the cylinder notch before the hand tries turning the cylinder and the bolt starts to mill off a lil of the side of the lock notch.
If it isn't bad then just a shiny spot will show up as the bolt clears a path to relieve the binding.
Making that to be right and then the action timing still be spot on is a lil difficult.
Shortening the hand a little is a way but then ......the cylinder may not be where it should be for the end of the action cycle to have the timing so....the bolt snaps into the cylinder notch simultaneously with the trigger snapping into full cock on the hammer.

If the hand is shortened a little then the cylinder will be a little late and the trigger will hit full cock before the cylinder lets the bolt snick into the notch. In that case the gun will still work but the timing would be a lil off.
Anywhoooo....fixing the problem with the hand turnin the cylinder before the bolt is out of the notch needs the bolt filed on so one side goes further and the other side gets closer to the hammers cam so the cam grabs the bolt leg sooner and works the bolt out of the cylinder notch sooner.
Why the fuss? Most all of those kinda guns you bought have the same lil timing problem. Maybe yours will be minimal and can just be left as is.

[St8LineLeatherSmith]

As Wolfgang already mentioned I use the little red plastic toy caps to practice.
heres where to get them on linehttp://www.thebigzoo.com/shopping/shopexd.asp?id=15169
you can find them at wally world too.