M1860 Carbine with 1865 Sights and No Sling Swivel on Stock

[djossi@yahoo.com]

There are two things about my recently acquired Model 1860 carbine that have me puzzled. First, it's equipped with the type of sight that the Marcot book states was only used on the 1865 carbines and rifles. Second, there is no sling swivel on the stock. Since the aging and coloring of the forestock is identical, it doesn't appear that the stock was swapped out at some point.

Thanks!
Dave J.

[Snakeeater]

There are two things about my recently acquired Model 1860 carbine that have me puzzled. First, it's equipped with the type of sight that the Marcot book states was only used on the 1865 carbines and rifles. Second, there is no sling swivel on the stock. Since the aging and coloring of the forestock is identical, it doesn't appear that the stock was swapped out at some point.

First question, it is not uncommon to find a M1865 ladder installed on a M1860 or vice-versa. That a relatively inexpensive fix. I think S&S gets about $35 for the M1865 sight ladder, some others charge $25 for either.

Second question: When you say there is no sling swivel on the stock, is it that the swivel is missing or the place for the sling swivel base has been filled-in; or there is no visible evidence that the stock was ever inlet for a rear sling swivel base? Photo would be most helpful on this one. If the forend and butt-stock have been replaced could explain how the swivel base was omitted from the butt-stock? So pull off the forend and see if it bears the serial number; and also check the wood beneath the butt-plate for the SN.

[djossi@yahoo.com]

Answers to your questions plus additional information:

• The sight is the Model 1865 version according to the Marcot book. If I decide to replace it, is that a fairly simple process or will I have to remove the spring and then have it tack welded back on again?

T.F. The spring should not have to be welded in place.

• The carbine appears to be a Model 1860 as there is no M1865 stamp on the barrel and the serial number is above 43,000.

• The stock does not have a cut-out for the sling swivel base or pre-drilled wood screw holes and there isn't any indication that it was filled in. Pictures attached.

T.F.  Probably a replacement stock

• I didn't realize that the forestock and the stock should also bear the serial number. There is no serial number stamped in either. I'm assuming that means they are replacements.

T.F.  The underside of the barrel has the serial # as does the top of the receiver, should be the same.

• Both the forestock and stock show extensive wear, scratches, and dings similar to what you would find on original parts (picture attached). They don't look like reproductions, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone has figured out how to age reproductions so they look more like originals.

T.F.  Easily done to age a stock; I've aged leather to look worn and used.

• Does the brass washer in the forestock (picture attached) look different than ones found on other Model 1860 carbines?  

T.F.  The washes on my 1860 Carbines are perfectly round; yours have the extensions that I have not seen on a Spencer before.

This seems to be a classic case of "let the buyer beware" in which I purchased something of a "pig-in-a-poke". As a "glass is half full" kind of guy, however, I have to say that I've learned quite a lot in the process. The most important lessons are: 1. I need to learn a great deal more about Spencers before I consider buying another one, and 2. Do not, under any circumstances, get so caught up in the thrill of owning a piece of history that you abandon common sense and buy an "as-is" item. Oh well, as my father liked to say, "look at it as another valuable experience on the pathway of life".

T.F.  What you need to do is get it into shooting condition, if you can, and forget about the add-ons that have been made to it . . . next time, be careful with your purchase, and get a five day return agreement if the Spencer is not what it's supposed to be.  I agree with your dad's comment and we all go through that stage in life.  And boy,  I've had a lot of "experiences" in the past!

[Arizona Trooper]

I suspect that you have a carbine that was put together from surplus parts in the 1870s. Several operations bought tons (literally) of parts from the government for pennies on the dollar and then put together whatever they could. Your carbine probably served through the war and then went to Springfield for refinishing, but for some reason didn't make the grade, so got broken down for parts. Eventually the parts were sold off to Bannerman, SH&G, Stokes-Kirk, White or a similar concern, and there it had the missing bits cobbled together. The forestock ferule looks like it came from a #2 Enfield lock screw.

[Snakeeater]

The brass "washer" or rather escutcheon is from a non-interchangeable Pattern 1853 Enfield rifle-musket or Pattern 1858 Naval rifle, so the forend and butt-stock have clearly been replaced. Now you just need to decide whether to do a quality restoration or leave the carbine as is. While you can get new wood (i.e. from S&S, Dunlap, or Romano, maybe others), original wood stocks are available from time to time. I recently purchased a forend in nearly new condition for $100, and while butt-stocks are a little more difficult to come by you could except to pay around $200-300 for a butt-stock in fine condition. When I restored my M1860 Rifle, Lodgewood had an original 3-band forend for $200 that was a perfect match for my butt-stock.  And too, there are carbines in worse condition (metal-wise) with very useable stocks that can provide the various missing parts you need without shelling out big bucks for the individual parts. Lots to think about.

[djossi@yahoo.com]

Snakeeater and Arizona Trooper,

Thank you both for taking the time to provide such detailed answers to my questions. It's just amazing to me, Snakeeater, that from a single part you can identify where the forestock of my carbine originated. BTW, I'm sure you don't remember, but I'm embarrassed to admit that you cautioned me against buying this particular Spencer in the first place.

I was wrong about the rear sight. It isn't spot welded--it just appeared that way to me. The good news is that I was able to obtain an original Model 1860 sight ladder. Unless I'm mistaken (which has happened on occasion - LOL) I'm hoping I can use the mounting screw and elevation ladder from the M1865 sight that I have and won't need to purchase anything more to correct that particular problem.

I located an original forestock for $150 and I'm in the process of purchasing it.

Before I forget, Snakeeater, the serial numbers on my carbine do match. Thank Heaven for small favors!

I'm still puzzled about the butt-stock. It seems to me that no matter whether it's the original or a replacement, it must be one manufactured by Spencer and not a reproduction or a stock taken from a different rifle. I reached that conclusion based on several things:

• I've compared it against the butt-stock on my New Model rifle and they are identical in terms of size and pattern.
• The stock for any Spencer not only has to have a cut-out on either side, one for the lock plate and the other for the saddle ring, and a cut-out for the buttplate, the center also has to be drilled out to accommodate the magazine. Therefore, I can't imagine someone going through all the effort to convert a stock from another rifle to fit a Spencer.
• My biggest assumption is that any reproduction butt-stock comes with a cut-out for the sling swivel base; therefore, the stock on my carbine can't be a reproduction because it doesn't have a cut-out..

Is there any possibility that I'm right?

Thanks !
Dave

[Arizona Trooper]

Your butt stock does appear to be a real Spencer part. Like you point out, it would be really hard to adapt something else. Parts were inspected all along the production process. If something caused a part to fail inspection, it went into the reject bin. Your butt stock may have been rejected before the swivel inletting was done, and that failure could have been purely cosmetic, such as a small knot or a grain problem. Spencer used rejects to build sporting rifles, but there were plenty more to find their way into the surplus market. If the stock is as good as the pictures look, you could just get a butt swivel and carefully install it yourself.