BP fouling in '73

[KirkD]

I had heard that claim and I suppose it could be true for "real" long range but the 200 yards you speak of is no problem at all.

Here is a photo of my best 200 yard group with a 200 grain 44-40 shot from my original Winchester Model 1873 ...



As I said, that was my best group when everything went right. Normally, my 200 yard 44-40 groups look more like this ....



As for Swiss powder in Canada, I have not verified this, but they list a Canadian distributer in Saskatchewan ...
Rayn'er Shine Gunworks

Francis Rayner
P.O. Box 35
Phone : 306-689-2783
raynershine@sasktel.net
www.raynershinegunworks.com   

[PJ Hardtack]

VERY impressive groups, especially with a vintage '73!

Even your 'normal' group size is 'minute of steel Cowboy' at 200 yds. Well done.

I use 5744 in my 45-70 and 50-70. Never occurred to me to try it in my 44-40's.

[w44wcf]

Goex FFg. Happen to have several lbs of it on hand. My FFFG Goex I save for my cap & ball guns.

Just did some surfing on the Big Lube bullet moulds ..... one 'expert' is of the opinion that the .44/200 gr will not carry well for 'long range'. Long range for my .44's is 200 yds with open sights.

Anyone want to dispute this 'expert's' claim?

I'm not sure what qualifies one to be an expert but I have tested the Big Lube and the 427098 side by side and at 100 yards, the  427098 definitely was more accurate......in my rifle.   As the distance increased out to 300 meters, the 427098 was able to hit the steel javelina almost repeatably but with the Big Lube the impact area was about 2X-3X the size of the javelina.  

However, the Big Lube is a fine bullet for it's intended purpose and one can get it in a 6 cav mold!

The reason for the diminished accuracy at longer distances is, I believe, the larger meplat and more blunt nose.
I also found that the Lyman 429666 did not group nearly as well as the 427098 at longer distances for the same reasons.

Here is a target comparing the 427098 with the 429666 at 150 meters by Lonesome Henry posted on CAS awhile back...



After seeing the accuracy that the 427098 was capable of, I sought a bullet with the same nose profile but with added lube capacity so that many shots could be fired using Goex for continued accuracy and no foul out.  The Accurate 43-215C was the result of that quest.

Thankfully in testing, it has proved to be as accurate at extended distances as its parent, the Historic, Vintage, Traditional .44-40 bullet........the 427098.




w44wcf  

[w44wcf]

Kirk,
Nice shooting at 200 with your '73.    
Now try it with b.p.  You just might be impressed.....

Here's a 200 yard b.p. target using the 43-215C.....
10 shots under 6" with most in 4". 



w44wcf

[PJ Hardtack]

I have been a customer of Rayn'er Shine in the past, but not for powder.

When you live on the windward side of the Rockies, the 'hazardous goods' fee on top of the initial price per lb. makes Swiss unaffordable. I envy my Prairies Chicken compadres!

As for Swiss powder in Canada, I have not verified this, but they list a Canadian distributer in Saskatchewan ...
Rayn'er Shine Gunworks

Francis Rayner
P.O. Box 35
Phone : 306-689-2783
raynershine@sasktel.net
www.raynershinegunworks.com   

[PJ Hardtack]

Looks like the Accurate 43-215 would be the better choice for all applications.

I checked the web site and didn't find a listing for this design.

[w44wcf]

See ...... 6th row up from the bottom on the right hand side.....
http://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=5

w44wcf

[KirkD]

w44wcf I have a GC bullet from Accurate but was thinking I'd like to try a plain base version. Your 43-215 sounds like exactly what I should get. By the way, if I can get Swiss from that Canadian dealer, I will finally start trying it in my 44 WCF. They sell Swiss 1.5. What would that be equivalent to in Goex .. FFg? or FFFg?

[Cliff Fendley]

A couple things I will point out from my testing.

I did observe is when crimping in the groove on starline brass the 215C pushed the max oal in all four 44wcf rifles I've tried them in, three Uberti rifles and an original 73 Winchester. It does work and cycle but it is to the point one needs to be careful and make sure you don't have long brass or check your oal with a few to make sure they work before loading up a bunch. For me they came out slightly longer than using a 427098 style bullet.

A quick reload over the top in a Uberti is pretty much out of the question with the 215C.

That said I feel like the extra length and weight are a good thing for long range.

I intend to use them for long range so fast cycling or reloading on the clock isn't an issue. For regular main match cowboy action shooting I still prefer the Mav44 big lube because the stubby bullet is more forgiving and I can do an over the top reload if I need to.

[w44wcf]

Kirk,
If you were to use Swiss, your g.c. bullet would work fine even possibly so without the g.c.  
Swiss 1 1/2 is about equal in size to Goex 2F but it has more ballistic strength.

Cliff,
Good points. When I worked on the design of the 43-215C, I looked at the SAAMI specs for the .44-40 cartridge.

THey show .....
cartridge - max o.a.l.  = 1.592"  (minimum o.a.l. = 1.540)
case ......- max length = 1.305"  (minimum o.a.l. = 1.285)
difference ..................=  .287"

I then measured the o.a.l. of some original .44-40 b.p. factory cartridges ...... 1.585" - 1.595"

So, wanting to closely replicate the original b.p. cartridge dimensions.......I specified the nose length to be .28" which when seated in a maximum length case (1.305") = 1.585" o.a.l. which is almost .010" less than the max o.a.l. if the bullet is seated to the top of the crimp groove.

I have mostly R-P, W.W., and older b.h. cases which measure closer to 1.29" length which = 1.57" which is well short of the max o.a.l.

The smaller qty of Starline brass that I have measure about 1.30" average which = 1.58", .012" short of the max o.a.l.

To date I have used the 43-215C in 3 rifles, 2 original '73's and a Marlin 1894 and they cycled very well in all of them.    

That being said, if someone wants a cartridge with a shorter o.a.l. in a maximum length case, Accurate also has the 43-210G which is the same as the 43-215C except the the nose is .015" shorter and the bullet weights 5 grs less.

In addition, there is the 43-205C which is also like the 43-215C but has a nose that is .04" shorter and weighs 10 grs. less.

w44wcf

[PJ Hardtack]

Too much information! ..... ;>) Now I'm thoroughly confused. Life was simpler without all these factors to consider.

My brass in Star-Line and Winchester. I've never trimmed any of it so I likely have every case length possible. I'd hate to invest in a mould that turns out to be an ingenious solution to a non-existent problem but unusable.

[w44wcf]

Sorry about the "too much information".  The bottom line, as they say, is this, if the cases are within SAAMI specs there will be no issues.  I have not known 44-40 cases to "grow" since the pressures are low.

w44wcf

[Cliff Fendley]

Didn't mean to be confusing.

It's no worries and actually the longer cartridges cycle smoother in a 73, I was just saying don't go loading up a bunch without first testing a couple through your rifle to make sure you are seating them deep enough. I was trying to seat as deep as possible and stay in the crimp groove.

Also as I said for main match CAS they don't allow an over the top reload because they are too long to clear the extractor and push square into the action. No problem if you reload through the gate or only doing long range or hunting.

My loads with the 215C were 1.59-1.595 oal. I didn't look at the SAAMI spec but do know that is pushing the max the guns will cycle, at first I was unsure if they were going to work in my original 73 but they did. The Uberti's actually have a little more room than the original Winchester.

The starline brass I'm using measures around 1.30 +/-

[KirkD]

Thanks for that info, w44wcf. Much appreciated.

[Coal Creek Griff]

The 43-215C has worked exceptionally well in my Uberti 1873.  I have noticed, however, that I needed to make sure my brass was of consistent length so that the crimp would hit the crimp groove just right.  I trim mine to 1.29" just for consistency.  I have used a simple Lee trimmer for that job, which is probably a one-time operation.  I am a huge advocate of the 43-215C design and I'm grateful to W44WCF for the work he put into it!

CC Griff

[QueensHorseman]

w44wcf I have a GC bullet from Accurate but was thinking I'd like to try a plain base version. Your 43-215 sounds like exactly what I should get. By the way, if I can get Swiss from that Canadian dealer, I will finally start trying it in my 44 WCF. They sell Swiss 1.5. What would that be equivalent to in Goex .. FFg? or FFFg?

Kirk,

I've recently been in contact with Doug at Raynershine and he only had a couple cans of Swiss 2F in stock but was expecting another order soon.  It is costly to buy and ship but so are most of the finer things in life.  I dealt with Doug once years ago and found him excellent.  I will be ordering a few pounds when his next order arrives even though shipping to NS is exorbitant. 

Love your original '73 and the pictures of it with the doe.  I carried a model 92 rifle in .44 wcf some this fall but had an '86 lwtd in
45-70 with me when I connected on a small buck this year.  .44 wcf is among my favorite cartridges and I have taken a few deer and caribou with it over the years using old Dominion factory cartridges.

[KirkD]

Thanks for that info. I am planning to order some Swiss from him as well when his next order arrives. I think I need Swiss  1.5