*** Interesting Photos *** Unusual Spencer Stamped Markings

[Two Flints]

Hello SSS,

The following photos were sent to me and the person wants to know what the flower symbol stands for or why it was stamped on this particulat Spencer.  Any ideas . . .

[PvtGreg]

Just a guess but That looks like an Imperial Japanese mark - the chrysanthemum was the symbol of the emperor.

Boshin War maybe?

Again - just a guess

[DJ]

Very interesting.  Appears to be (or was) a model 1860 carbine--the marks being hidden in some locations and the reduced number of petals (8 vs. 16 for the emperor's mark) don't suggest a Japanese ownership mark but possibly an inspector stamp.  Can't tell from the photos whether the serial number on the receiver was scrubbed or not--but kind of looks like it.

Some Spencer sporting rifles had stacked serial numbers in locations similar to the alignment of the upper block, lower block, lever, but I haven't seen flowers instead of numerals.

Is the configuration a standard carbine? 

[Arizona Trooper]

Seems odd that the Emperor would take the rifle so completely to pieces and mark every part. I wonder if it is a prototype. The flower appears on all the places where an assembly number would be on a civilian Spencer (plus the back of the hammer head). The 8 (or 3) under the barrel makes me think tool room special. Some Merrills have similar markings for assembly codes.

Does it have any unusual features (other than the hole drilled up the back of the forestock)?

It appears that the magazine tube broke at some point, by the chunk of metal missing from the receiver under the lock plate. Does the buttstock have a flower mark like the forestock? If not, I'd guess it's a replacement. Could have had a magazine explosion.

Interesting Spencer!

[Herbert]

With the marks being on critacal parts I would gess that they are inspection marks,it does apear to be a 1860 action so I dought it is a Belgian Spencer as these were made on NM type actions,more pictures of the carbine may help

[St. George]

Imperial Japanese Chrysanthemum - indicating ownership by the Emperor.

The Emperor owned 'everything', and the individual held little value - certainly not as much value as the small arms and equipment he was issued.

This was an on-going precept - and in many of the photos of WWII Jap dead, you see the rifle cradled across the leg or body.

This was done to better protect it from the dirt and elements.

[DJ]

Any chance the British or Canadians got hold of it?  Some kind of sample, perhaps?  Attached photo is from a much later weapon--Inglis Hi Power--but couldn't help noticing the similarity:  same number of "petals" and similar shape to them as well.  Maybe somebody has a contemporary British/Canadian Snider Mk II* or Mk II** readily available to compare it to.

I'm still not convinced it's a Japanese mark--the emperor used 16 petals, some of the imperial family reportedly used 14, but this has only eight.  Also, the emperor's mark was usually big and proud on the receiver ring, not hidden under the wood or on the backside of the hammer.

[Herbert]

This mark is not the Imperial Japanese Chrysanthemum ,the Japanese went to great lenths to make sure the Chrysanthemum mark when used was done properly,shortcuts would have met with severe penilitys,what else it is I do not know,I can see no Japanese onership marks on this gun as I have seen on other Japanese Spencers

[46 rimfire]

     I would have joined the conversation earlier but I had difficulty registering on CasCity. It seems that MSN.com and possibly AOL.com were blocking my activation emails(?) This Spencer carbine is the first one I have ever owned and honestly was not sure what I was buying other than it was a Civil War Spencer. I did not realize that there was no serial number on the carbine. I knew very little about Spencers but I am going through a steep learning curve.
    I am a 20 year member of the North-South Skirmish Association and I have a decent collection of pre-Marlin Ballards. I shoot the military models in the Single Shot matches.
    Being a newbie to the field of Spencer carbines and rifles, I turned to a knowledgeable N-SSA member and it was he who enlightened me about the missing serial numbers, the unusual marking on the receiver where the serial number used to be and the fact that these numerous mums or flowers or asterisks were not your typical Spencer markings. He also directed me to this web site and the Spencer Shooting Society.
    I posted a similar email on the NSSA web site and have received several responses. Members have found the identical "flower" marking on an 1816 H&P percussion conversion, an 1816 Harpers Ferry musket and a Moore Enfield.
    After reading all the responses, it appears that the Japanese connection is not correct. Someone suggested the possibility of a Russian connection with an arsenal in Tula, Russia and that possibly the receiver marking was a Russian letter or number. A suggestion was given that it might possibly be a Cherokee marking or name?
    So, at this point, without any firm proof, anyone's guess or suggestion might be 100% correct(or incorrect). I want to thank all who have responded and I hope that the ideas will keep coming. There is a story somewhere........ if only it could talk.

46 rimfire

[PJ Hardtack]

Sure looks like the Japanese Chrysanthemum to me. Anyone got an Arisaka to compare it with?

It sure isn't what I remember as the * marking I became familiar with on all the Brit and Canuck arms I've handled, both as a civilian and as a soldier.

[Blair]

I can't help but wonder if this Chrysanthemum "style" marking was the same type and style used on the late 1860's arms to show Imperial ownership?
I, in all honesty, don't know. Just thought it was a question that should be asked.
My best,
Blair

[Herbert]

Sure looks like the Japanese Chrysanthemum to me. Anyone got an Arisaka to compare it with?

It sure isn't what I remember as the * marking I became familiar with on all the Brit and Canuck arms I've handled, both as a civilian and as a soldier.

It does not look like the Japanese Chrysanthemum mark on my Arisaka at all,I also can not find the mark in my refrence book on the Arisaka .I have seen this mark before but can not rember were.it is just the posioning of the marks that maks me think they could be inspection marks,onership marks will not be on minor parts but they can be small inspection into service marks such as the British broad  arrow WD mark,the * on the British rifles is a mark that showa a change has been caried out in a certaian modle rifl without the basic modle being changed,I am sure somone will find the origin of this mark ,it has got me thinking

[Snakeeater]

Seems that most everyone assumes the mark is some form of flower, whether a chysanthemum or lotus flower. But as there is really little else to go by as far as the carbine's provenance, though a five or six-pointed asterisk is more common today, I have noted that an eight-pointed asterisk has been in existence for centuries and is found in not only German runes but is often found stamped on such modern arms as German Lugars.  The added fact that you can still order steel stamps bearing very similar symbols, even an eight-pointed asterisk, it would not be too terribly difficult for anyone today to order a steel stamp made with precisely this very same asterisk design. Like Herbert says, why stamp every part if the purpose was to show ownership? Perhaps the marks served no purpose at all? Just some owner's idiosyncrasy?

http://stores.homestead.com/TheUrbanBeader/-strse-552/Basic-Design-Stamp-Set/Detail.bok

http://www.pjtooljewelry.com/impressart-design-stamps.aspx