*** UPDATE!! *** Original Spencer Carbine Stock with Inscribed Lettering

Started by Two Flints, December 07, 2011, 08:22:17 PM

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Snakeeater

Occasionally, you will also encounter guns (including Spencers) bearing characters from the Cherokee syllabary, but the provenance may not necessarily be Cherokee in origin. Many of the western Native American tribes (as well as some African tribes) also adopted the Cherokee syllabary as a means of being able to read and write their own native language.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cherokee/Syllabary

http://www.cherokeelessons.com/Super-Cherokee-Syllabary-Dictation-Practice/
First Cousin (Six times removed) to BGen Isaac (Stand Firm) Uwatie,  Principal Chief of the Cherokee Nation, 1862-1866

celem

Snake eater - while a couple of the characters bear some resemblance to the Cherokee alphabet there are some characters that look a lot like those of Two Flints.

celem

FYI - in addition to the strange lettering on the stock I thought that I'd add a few additional details about the carbine.
I purchased this Spencer back in the early 1970s in Atlanta, Georgia during my lunch hour for the then princely sum of $95. I recently became interested in the thought of shooting it with a centerfire conversion breechblock and have done some research trying to figure out would be the correct ammunition.

I slugged the bore and was surprised at the groove measurement - .5343. The lands measure .515. I measured the groove with both a micrometer and a digital caliper. I measured the lands with a digital caliper. The barrel has 6-grove rifling. After seeing other people reporting .512 or .513 I searched around on the web and found some others reporting that their Spencers also slugged .535. However, they seem to be in the minority and most slug around .512-515.

A. M. Beck wrote in "Spencer's Repeaters, Some History and Shooting Tips" "Due to the very deep rifling popular in the 1860's, groove diameter of model 1863 Spencers can be as large as .540" although .535" is more common. To insure that the soft lead bullets would fill any bore in which they might possibly be fired, even if damaged in transport, the average bullet diameter of original rounds is about .55". The post war models usually slug out at .515", although .518" is not especially rare."

In the Gun Digest Book of Classic American Combat Rifles, by Terry Wieland, he wrote:
Spencer models are difficult to classify, as L D Satterlee noted in his 2—part article in The American Rifleman for May 1 and 15, 1926. The list that follows leans heavily on that invaluable study, as well as on the same authors A Catalog of Firearms for the Collector (Detroit, 1927).

Rifles of 30" bbl length and carbines with 22" bbls, both cal 52 (bore 519"-20", grooves 537"- 38" taking the 56-56 Spencer cartridge of 885" length, using 42-grs of powder (black) and a 362-gr bullet of 540" diameter These were all 6-grooved barrels, and all were made at Boston in the Chickering Piano Works at Tremont and Camden Streets. Early specimens had no serial numbers.

My carbine, with its .535 bore and with not having a serial number would appear to have been an early delivery and thus likely to have seen use during the War Between the States.

It appears to me that all of the Spencer cartridge cases currently available are for the 56-50 and what I probably need is 56-56. I have been unable to find 56-56 brass. I may give up on this as the thought of finding and chopping 50/70 cases may exceed my interest level.

Herbert

BACO sells 56-56 Spencer cases and they also sell a bullet mould for the 56-56,CH makes 56-56 reloding dies BACO somtimes have these in stock

celem

Thanks, I looked at the Buffalo Arms site and their 56-56 die set is currently unavailable - wow, it is pricey - $129.28! Their $180 .539 Spencer 56-56 bullet mold is currently unavailable.
The have 56-56 cases but without the dies they aren't super useful.

It seems that all of the necessary reloading supplies will cost around $500, plus cases at $3 each - wow!

Meanwhile, Gad Custom Cartridges appears to sell loaded 56-56 ammunition. I have emailed them to verify availability and applicability. I can shoot a lot of their ammo before I come close to the reloading costs. Meanwhile, I'll ponder reloading.

DJ


Snakeeater

Quote from: celem on October 29, 2013, 10:51:05 AM
I can shoot a lot of their ammo before I come close to the reloading costs. Meanwhile, I'll ponder reloading.

Celem,

You won't save nearly as much as you think you'll save buying from GAD, even in .56-56 Spencer. Sure, there are a lot of "up-front" costs to reload but depending upon how many rounds you shoot each month (or each year), those "up-front" costs don't really seem quite as much in the long run. While there may be some others here who can reload for less, for the average novice reloader here is how it breaks down for cost (and you can tweak as needed):

BACo .56-56 CF cases ($196 per 100-pc) or $1.96 ea
Winchester Large Rifle primers ($26/1000) or $0.026 ea
Goex FFFg Black Powder ($16/lb x 40 grains) or $0.0914 ea
SPG Hollow 1 oz stick lube (3 for $10) or $0.0183 ea
Lead bullet BACo .539 .56-56 bullet ($0.50/lb x 375 grains) or $0.0268 ea
Cost per round = $2.123

[NOTE: The main expense here is the cost of the brass cases; reduce that cost and you reduce the overall cost to reload]

Equipment Costs:
BACo .56-56 die set ($129.28)
BACo .539 single cavity mould for .56-56 RNFP heeled bullet ($139.95)
Lee Classic 4-Hole Turret Press ($94.99)
Lyman 4500 Sizer/Lubricator w/ 110V heater ($152.34)
H&I .535 Sizer die ($19.87)
Top punch #191 ($7.40)
Total $543.83 (or prorated over 10 years at 2000 rounds per year is $0.0272 per round)

So even figuring in the prorated cost of the equipment, you won't spend $2.25 a round unless you decide to do so.  
First Cousin (Six times removed) to BGen Isaac (Stand Firm) Uwatie,  Principal Chief of the Cherokee Nation, 1862-1866

Snakeeater

Alternatively, Celem, you could spend a little more money and replace the existing barrel with a new-made barrel, chambered for .56-50, for which the cost breakdown would change to as follows:

Starline .56-50 CF cases ($779 per 1000-pc) or $0.779 ea
Winchester Large Rifle primers ($26/1000) or $0.026 ea
Goex FFFg Black Powder ($16/lb x 40 grains) or $0.0914 ea
SPG Hollow 1 oz stick lube (3 for $10) or $0.0183 ea
Lead bullet Romano .519 .56-50 bullet ($0.50/lb x 395 grains) or $0.0282 ea
Cost per round = $0.9429 ea

New .56-50 Romano Spencer Carbine barrel might cost about $650 ($750 for 30" rifle barrel) with sights ready to go installed in your receiver. You can decide how many rounds you expect to fire over the new barrel's life and prorate it accordingly. Say at practice you shoot 100 rounds a day, plus another 100 rounds per competition shoot (one each per month): $650 prorated over 10 years at 2500 rounds per year or $0.026 ea.

You still want to shoot for $2.25 a round?
First Cousin (Six times removed) to BGen Isaac (Stand Firm) Uwatie,  Principal Chief of the Cherokee Nation, 1862-1866

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