A forensically proven Spencer Carbine from Little Big Horn

[Henry4440]

One item of great Western interest is the rare and important Indian tack decorated Spencer carbine. This gun was actually used at The Battle of Little Big Horn against Custer's Troopers. It has been forensically proven to have been at the battlefield as a result of an excavation that was done back in the 1980s. Cartridge casings were collected throughout the battlefield and later, people who had arms that they were led to believe were used in that most famous of all Western battles were allowed to have their gun tested. If the telltale signs of the spent cartridge casing matched with a casing discovered on the field, it confirmed that the gun had been used in the battle that resulted in Custer's and his entire unit's demise. In addition to the forensic proof, this gun also carries the pedigree of having been on display for many years at the renowned Cody Firearms Museum. A great Indian-used gun with original Indian tack decoration, this historic piece carries a presale estimate of $85,000-125,000.


http://jamesdjulia.com/press_releases/pr_2011.asp?cID=firearm

[Fox Creek Kid]

After you buy it PM me and we'll go shoot it. 

[Henry4440]

After you buy it PM me and we'll go shoot it. 

THAT'S is a LITTLE too much for me.

Here is the link  for a little more information about this gun. Scroll down to Lot.2459 and click on the pic.
http://jamesdjulia.com/auctions/div_catalog_303.asp?pageREQ=2

[Perseo]

Bumping this old thread to add some information of interest.

The final selling price of the Custer Battlefield Indian-used Spencer Carbine:  $138,000.

Here is the final auction item description, which makes for interesting reading:

EXTREMELY RARE FORENSICALLY PROVEN INDIAN USED CUSTER BATTLEFIELD SPENCER CARBINE. SN 30670. Cal. 56-56. Standard Civil War carbine with 22" bbl, square base front sight with German silver blade and 900 yard Spencer ladder rear sight. Left side of frame & wrist have a sling bar & ring. Mounted with uncheckered walnut that has extensive Indian brass tack decorations on both sides and top of the wrist. Forearm shows heavy saddle bow wear and the stock is heavily damaged with losses on the left side around the thin areas over the magazine tube. This carbine was part of the very famous Dr. Kenneth D. Leonard Collection of Indian Arms which was on loan to the Cody Firearms Museum, Buffalo Bill Historical Center in Cody, WY for many years. Dr. Leonard related to Mr. Glenn Swanson that he had obtained this carbine while working as a medical doctor in the Dakotas during the 1950s & 60s. In 1984 & 1985 during archeological excavations at the Little Big Horn Battlefield National Monument, after a prairie fire had exposed substantial amounts of the battlefield, numerous cartridge cases were excavated throughout the battlefield. One such specimen was number "1277" which was found on the southeastern side of Greasy Grass Ridge in a cluster of other cartridge cases which is believed to have been occupied by Indians during the battle and were used against soldiers of Lt. Calhoun's command during the battle of the Little Big Horn on June 25, 1876. This cluster of cartridge cases disclosed that there were more than fifteen different firearms used from that particular location. A copy of the map of that location with the numbered specimens noted as to their exact place of discovery on Greasy Grass Ridge. After the excavation was closed to further exploration the Custer Battlefield Identification Project was launched to attempt to forensically match any Custer fight firearms to cartridge cases excavated from the battlefield. At that time Dr. Leonard's collection of Indian-used firearms was on display in the Cody Firearms Museum. Internationally acclaimed forensic expert Doug Scott and members of the identification project made firing pin impressions of any and all available firearms and later, using comparison microscopes, positively identified the impressions from this carbine as being identical to those of field specimen #1277. A notarized letter to that effect accompanies this carbine. This carbine has received substantial publicity in several publications including Custer, Cavalier in Buckskin, Utley; Gunfighter, Rosa; The Plains Indian, Taylor; G.A. Custer His Life and Times, Swanson and several others. Of the fifteen firearms forensically matched to Custer Battlefield excavated cartridge cases, very few are still in private hands, with most being in museums. This is one of the few remaining chances to own a positively documented Custer Battlefield firearm and is one of the finest, authentic Indian tack decorated firearms to come to market.A casting of the original cartridge casing head will be available to the buyer of this historic item. PROVENANCE: Dr. Kenneth D. Leonard Collection; Cody Firearms Museum; Glenn Swanson Collection. CONDITION: Fair. No orig finish remains being an overall very dark brown weathered patina with areas of surface rust & light pitting. The wood shows very heavy wear with a few missing tacks and damage to the stock with a few missing slivers. However mechanics are fine, strong sharp dark bore. 4-41839 JR212 (85,000-125,000)

[Perseo]

Photos of the carbine and lots of pertinent information making the Little Big Horn battle connection are on the Julia auction web site.

Look for Item 2459 at http://jamesdjulia.com/auctions/div_catalog_303.asp?pageREQ=2

[Two Flints]

A More Direct Route to the Spencer Carbine, SN 30670.

http://jamesdjulia.com/auctions/catalog_detail_shots.asp?Details=41839&sale=303&lot=2459

[G.W. Strong]

That is absolutely fabulous. What fascinating reading!

[Snakeeater]

Definitely this was a fascinating case, and one that I was highly curious to examine. I even obtained copies of the archaeological and forensic assessments that were conducted on the Custer battlefield, including Reno Hill, and briefly investigated this very auction in which involved the sale of a Model 1860 Spencer Carbine that was reputedly used by the Indians at the Little Big Horn (this based on supposed forensic evidence concerning a .56-.50 cartridge recovered from the battlefield that was claimed to match the imprint of this Spencer Carbine's rim-fire firing pin).

Not that the testing was extensive or compared multiple rifles and carbines to discern any set pattern attributable to their common manufacture, a casting of the original cartridge case was to be provided to the carbine's buyer as documented evidence. The .56-50 Spencer metallic cartridge case was claimed to be identical to that pictured at bottom right in Figure 50 (item labeled "j.j'" on page 156) in the report entitled "Archaelogical Perspectives on the Battle of the Little Bighorn" (Scott, Fox, Connor, Harmon; 1989).  

An analysis of the Spencer cartridges is offered on page 176 of the report concerning the two types of cartridge cases recovered, the .56-50 Spencer represented by FS1257 and 1277. Of these, FS1277 has a raised-H headstamp denoting Winchester manufacture; the other is not headstamped (fig. 50j). The remaining six cases found (FS6, 1056, 1290, 1295, 1297, 1298) are all in .56-.56 Spencer. Only one is headstamped and this one is with a "U" (FS1290) denoting Union Metaliic Arms Company manufacture. Only one identifiable Spencer bullet (fig 52a) was recovered during the inventory of the Custer battlefield. It is a .50-caliber variety (FS1200). Three .50-caliber Spencer bullets were found at the Reno-Benteen defense site. One type is a flat-based bullet with a crimping grove high on the shoulder. The two bullets in this type (FS2453, 3297) have impressions of Spencer six-land-and-groove rifling. The third bullet (FS4905) has a raised base with three lubricating cannelures. This bullet also has six lands and grooves. Undoubtedly a number of other .50-caliber bullets were fired in Spencers, though most U.S. military .50-caliber shoulder weapons of this period were rifled to similar specifications, it is very difficult to determine weapon type from bullets with six-land-and-groove imprints. Firing-pin and extractor analysis indicate at least two .56-50 Spencers were present at the battle. At least two .56-56 Spencers were also used (table 7). Though no bullet fragments were noted in the report, had any been recovered forensics could still determine the number of grooves based on the widths of any land and groove data, simply by combining their sum, and solving mathematically (for example):  had the bullet been a .357 diameter, hence .357 / .185 x 3.14 = 6.059 ~ 6-groove rifling.

One yet unidentified .56-50 case (FS644) has an unidentified block firing-pin imprint and also a raised-H headstamp. The rectangular firing-pin imprint noted has not been identified and associated with a specific firearm type, and was perpendicular to the rim, not tangential, so could not have been an imprint caused by a Spencer.  I speculated that it could have been from a Jocelyn or Warner, perhaps even a Ballard, each of which would have made a similar imprint perpendicular to the rim edge.

Anyone interested in bullet analysis should explore the link below:

http://www.firearmsid.com/A_nogunid.htm

[Snakeeater]

In 1879 Springfield Armory conducted a study of hundreds of captured Indian firearms to investigate whether the western tribes had any weaponry superior to that of American troops. The study concluded that although some Indians had repeating magazine-fed firearms, the Army's single-shot arms had the long-range power and accuracy needed for trans-Mississippian warfare. Below is part of that report:

Report on Indian Arms by National Armory, Springfield (27 July 1879)

Of the large number of arms received by the National Armory from the various Indian agencies, the larger portion of which were muzzle-loaders— some even having flint-locks— four were evaluated as being the most powerful or the most rapid firing guns in the collection. The four evaluated were:

No.1— Sharps breech-loading target rifle, cal. 44 CF, old model, set trigger; weighing 12 pounds, 12 ounces; 30-inch octagonal barrel, buckhorn rear sight.
No. 2— Sharps breech-loading target rifle, cal. 44 CF, old model, set trigger; weighing 9 pounds, 6 ounces; 23-inch octagonal barrel, buckhorn rear sight.
No. 3— Winchester repeating (17 shot) rifle. Cal. 44 RF, Model 1866, 24-inch barrel.
No. 4— Winchester repeating (17 shot) rifle. Cal. 44 RF, Model 1866, 24-inch barrel, no rear sight (broken off).

On account of the small charge carried by the Winchester repeater it was tested in comparison with the Springfield carbine for accuracy, rapidity and accuracy combined, power both by penetration in white pine and computed energy, and initial velocity. Similar comparisons were made between the Sharps and Springfield rifle. Note: In 1879 saw the first Regular Army trials of the Winchester-Hotchkiss magazine fed bolt-action six-shot rifle and carbine, but this was not the Springfield rifle used in these evaluations.

"One thousand yards was the extreme limit at which the Sharps with long barrel could be fired unless special sights were prepared for it. As the evaluation board was required to text these arms in the condition received, and as used by the Indians, this, was, of course, inadmissible. It may be said briefly that the long-barrel Sharps is a more powerful arm than the Springfield rifle, its barrel alone weighing more than the Springfield complete. It is not, however, a practical service arm on account of its great weight, 13 pounds, and that of its ammunition. While this one gun is undoubtedly capable of firing at longer range than the Springfield, this very quality has been ignored by the Indians, as may be seen by examining its sight and those of other arms received at this armory from the Indian agencies. Both the Sharps have had peep-sights, and the longer one probably a telescopic sight, judging from the slots in the barrel. All of these have been removed. Evidently the Indians did not desire to waste their ammunition (which they probably obtained with more or less difficulty) at long ranges."

An inventory of some 200 breechloading rifles, carbines, and muzzleloaders all captured from the Sioux and Cheyenne Indians and shipped from Cheyenne, Wyoming Territory to the National Armory at Springfield for evaluation, of the last category, some 94 of 148 muzzle-loading rifles were made by one maker, H.E. Leman of Lancaster, PA, in calibres .38 to .58. Ten others were made by J.P. Lower, Philadelphia, PA and six by S. Hawkens of St Louis, MO, while six others were by J. Henry, St Louis, and four by Henry Folson, also of St Louis. Five others were by other civilian makers. Of muzzle-loading military arms, included: two Model 1863 by Savage (one with Springfield lock); Model 1861 Spl by Colt (short rifle); Parker Snow & Co; E. Whitney; Watertown (razee); two M1822 smoothbore muskets (one of which was razeed); M1855 Whitney; M1842 Harpers Ferry; two M1841 Harpers Ferry rifles (one razeed); 1863 Whitneyville musket; M1841 rifle by Whitney; three 1861 and one 1862 Tower Enfield muskets; also 1861 Enfield by London Arms Co, and one (not dated) marked Enfield; and assorted other makes, mostly civilian.

Of breechloading rifles and/or carbines, there were four Henry rifles, 12 Winchester rifles (three of which were 1866 and the rest carbines), 13 Sharp's carbines (metallic cartridge); as well as 23 Spencer carbines, Model 1865; three Warner carbines; three Josyln; three Starr; four Wesson; two Remington (.50 caliber); three Ballard rifles (one razeed); as well as a Gallagher, a Smith, and a Merrill carbine.

[Annual Report to the Chief of Ordnance to the Secretary of War for the Fiscal Year Ended June 30, 1879 (1879) , App. V, pp303-320]

Archaeological studies of the Custer Battlefield in 1984 and 1985 show "overwhelming evidence that the Sioux and Cheyenne outgunned the soldiers." Of probably 1500 warriors in the battle, "perhaps 200 carried 16 shot repeating Winchester and Henry Rifles." More than a third had one of the forty-one different types of Indian firearms identified. See Robert Paul Jordan, "Ghosts on the Little Big Horn," National Geographic, p. 797; and Douglas D. Scott and Melissa A. Connor, "Post-Mortem at the Little Bighorn," Natural History, pp. 50-51.

Curiously, 30670 still retains its original military rear sight without further modification and certainly not a buckhorn sight like the Army soon afterwards adopted for the trapdoor owing to the difficulties soldiers found in using the military ladder sights.