Holster suggestions

[Pappy Hayes]

I am working on slim jim holsters for my Type II conversions. I am having trouble deciding whether to put in toe plugs or not. According to Packing Iron most of them had them so I am leaning towards it. My issue I have not tried it before and not sure if I can do it. I have been talking with Mr. Ghormley in emails and have looked at pictures on his web site that shows him making the Hand of God holster but not quite getting it. I do not want to destroy my holsters. I am also having problems with coming up with what I want to carve on them. I have tried drawing some but I guess I have been away from drawing too long and cannot come up with anything good that I like. So my question is do I put in toe plugs or leave them out?

[Slowhand Bob]

I do not like them and seldom add them to my holsters.  Remember, people are looking at the holster from a disatance and an angle that will ot allow them to tell.  Add to this the fact that it was not universal and any merits are somewhat debatable and it becomes strictly a wash when compared to your preference.  Most of the ones I have done with plugs were made to resemble military flap holsters and the recipients preferred plugs.  A good visual can be seen in Chuck Burrow's holster making videos.  (Also an excellent resource for anyone wanting to take their leather work to the next level.) 

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Bob is right. You can make a good holster without toe plugs that look like they have them. If you really want to look like it, you could always put a stitch line around the toe as though it had one sewn in.

[Cliff Fendley]

It only takes a few minutes extra to do a plug so why not?  

I almost refuse to make a holster with an open toe and some designs like a Cheyenne holster a toe plug is an absolute. Very few 19th holsters I've seen were open toe, most had toe plugs or are sewn through the toe. That pretty much went with the maker and also appears to be somewhat territorial.

When I was younger I had the crown of one of my pistols get hit pretty good when I was hunting. I sewed the toe of that holster closed before I ever carried it again.

The bottom line is there are advantages of a plug but I've never had anyone convince me of any advantage to an open toe. Some will say dirt or water can fall through but keep in mind if that much filth is in the toe of the holster it went down past the action of the pistol to get there. I would much rather protect the muzzle crown and a toe plug also helps keeps the holsters shape. I can usually tell from ten feet away if a holster has a toe plug or not, even if it's lined or has a stitch seem around the toe.

I'm a fan of toe plugs if you can't tell.

[David Carrico]

I agree with Cliff, most period holsters have toe plugs. It makes them look complete. Not everyone does them, but that is what seperates the amatures from the professionals in my opinion.

[Pappy Hayes]

I have self taught myself so far doing leather work. I am at a point now I feel I need someone to show me a few things like sewing toe plugs to push me to the next level. I really want toe plugs at least in my personal holsters since I want to be period correct. I have seen on Will Ghormley's web site the photos on making the Hand of God Holster but am having problems understanding the first stitch that locks the point of the plug in.

[Cliff Fendley]

Pappy, it's hard to explain but I'll try.

I've never found a tutorial on doing a toe plug. I had to use trial and error and did some serious head scratching and hard studying on some original holsters to try and figure out which direction the thread went.

I sew all my toe plug holsters by hand, that is not necessary to be period correct since I've seen Meanea and other holsters from the 1880's and later have a machine stitched main seam and a toe plug that was hand stitched.

I just like doing it so it is all linen thread and like it to be one continuous thread. I saddle stitch down the main seam and once I turn the corner stitch up at an angle to the point on the toe plug. From that point on the toe plug is my back side and I stitch around it and finish by stitching back down through the point and end at the corner stitch.

I know that is probably as clear as mud. It's really hard to explain and I'm not sure if my method is the best or even the way that was normally used.

Here is a picture of an original F.A. Meanea and a couple of mine. I don't know if they will help or not.







What I do is stitch up into the point on the toe plug with the back side thread, then continue stitching around the plug until you get back to the point. The stitches in the plug will be closer than on the body of the holster and the wont all be going in straight if you want to keep them spaced evenly.

[Pappy Hayes]

Cleff,

   Sounds about like Will Ghormley shows on his web page making the Hand of God rig. I am having a hard time understanding at the point it looks like he is making one hole and coming up from the back side of the holster through that hole and down through the same hole through the front of the holster. I think it would just pull the thread out of the point of the toe plug. I have a slim jim holster I made for 1860 arm I am going to try and sew one in using the example of the Stohlman book I have. If it comes out ok, I am going to try adding to a couple of 1851 slim jims I have made. Then hopefully I have it down and I can sew them in my personal slim jims for my Type II conversions.

Do you punch your holes as you go with stitching awl of do you make your holes both in the holster and the toe plug?

[Biscuit Joe]

Here's Wills link to sewing a toe plug.
Hope it helps.
  http://www.willghormley-maker.com/MakingHOGRig2.html 

[Trailrider]

I don't know if this will be sufficient, but here goes...  Some of my holsters, mostly slim jims, Cheyenne-style, and military holsters have toe plugs. (I'm with Cliff Fendley...I make open-toed holsters under protest! When you've slid down as many mountains on your backside as I have, you'll understand the risk of scooping up dirt, snow and goo into your barrel clear up to the cylinder with an open toe holster.)

Before stitching in the main seam and the toe, I groove the main welt and the end with a continuous thread groove. I pre-drill or punch holes in the groove with a threadless needle on my sewing machine, from the top down to the last holes on the main seam. At the bottom of the holster, where the toe will go, I use a hand awl held at a 45 degree angle from the groove toward the end of the holster, spacing them about the same spacing as the holes in the main seam. I push a small Speed-stitch needle through the marks made by the awl clear through the leather. I then bevel the leather at a 45 degree angle using a 1-inch diameter sanding drum (wear a dust mask and eye protection).  
I temporarily assemble the holster, without the plug, using #17x 3/4" copper-coated steel nails on every tenth pair of holes. This gives the end of the holster the teardrop shape (except military holsters that had round plugs). I rough cut a piece of 10-11 oz. leather larger than the end of the holster body. I either mark the leather with a sharp pencil or apply dye to the end of the holster, and quickly press the dyed end of the holster to the flesh (rough) side of the plug blank. This gives a close approximation of the right size. I cut the plug to size and then sand a 45 deg. bevel on the edge of the plug so it matches the one on the body, making a matching joint. I then run the groover around the edge of the plug, about 1/16 to 3/32nd" from the edge (same as the distance from the edge on the body. I then use the awl and needle method to punch matching holes t the ones on the end of the body.

I stitch by hand, using a Landis machine hook (a needle with the eye in the point end that is open on one side. The hook is pushed clear through the matching holes in the seam, and one end of the thread is caught and pulled part way back through the holes, forming a loop. The other end of the thread is then pushed through the loop and the ends pulled taut with the connection between the layers. This is essentially a machine stitch. Prior to stitching, I apply Barge cement to the mating surfaces. Using the hook has the advantage of making it easy to pull the thread ends around the corner where the last stitches in the toe transition to the main seam. Thus, the thread is one continuous piece. I use synthetic thread, mostly polyester nowadays, as my customers want their holsters to hold up a lot longer than most of the originals did.

Hope this helps...

[Cliff Fendley]

Pappy, the hole at the point on the toe plug does go at an angle both directions. I come up from the back to that point, from that point go down through the front and the front thread comes from the front up through that hole.

It sounds like Will and I do it the same way and from what I can tell that is how F.A. Meanea did it.

I use an awl and punch one hole at a time and sew. I do not prepunch holes for the toe plug but you'll have to try and see what works for you. The trick is a small and super sharp awl. I ground the awl I use for that and it is very sharp and mirror polished.

[ChuckBurrows]

The trick is a small and super sharp awl.

yep that and using a somewhat finer thread than the main seam  when hand sewing - I generally use 5 cord for the main seam and 3 cord for the toe - on the majority of handsewn civilian originals that I've examined most were done that way. Even when I do period correct stuff using finer thread and closer stitches (for me typically 3 cord and 10 SPI) I generally use a separate thread for the toe - lots of originals with missing plugs yet the main seam is still tight. Making the toe plug out of either thicker material than the holster or gluing two piece together helps a bunch as well since the plug is more stable and if you choose you can also glue them in place before sewing.

and FWIW - I Won't make an open toe (once found my barrel plugged with crap with an open toe) and once I learned how-to do toe plugs I prefer doing them even over round sewn toes without a plug....

[ChuckBurrows]

here's the link to a pdf file on making toe plugs that should help

http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/tutorials/holster_end.pdf

[Cliff Fendley]

Thanks for that link Chuck. That is a good tip about thicker material for the plug I forgot to mention. I use a very thick piece for the toe plug.

Also sounds like you had a bad experience with using an open toe holster too.

I also agree that I would rather sew a toe plug than a sewn through toe. I dreaded the first few toe plugs I did but after a point I don't even think about it.

I've worked on nine holsters in the last week and six of them have toe plugs.

[ChuckBurrows]

Yep I haven't made anything but plug toes in several years except for a pair of holsters that the gent wanted 5 1/2" holsters that looked like they had had plugs that had then been removed to allow carrying of 7 1/2".... takes all kinds I reckon 
That's a few hundred holsters - just finished 5 last week...

[TN Mongo]

Pappy you've gotten some great advise from top leather makers.  The only thing that I might ad is that I made a practice piece before I actually tried it with a set of holsters.  I took some scrap leather and made the last 4" of the holster from the pattern and sewed in a toe plug. 

The practice piece had a few problems, but it helped me learn and gain confidence.  The first set I made for real with toe plugs turned out quite well.

[1961MJS]

Hey Pappy, how did the toe plug work out?  Curious, I need to get back into the leather work hobby.  I made a holster for my old 3rd model dragoon about 25 years ago.  Haven't carried it at all.  I was Civil War back then and infantry didn't carry a pistol.

Later

Mike
Wichita KS

[Pappy Hayes]

Tried sewing toe plug on a practice piece. Doesn't look real good. Have not tried it again. Have had other projects come up for people I know. Have not even done  anything on my personal holsters except cut them out. Have not settle on what I want to stamp or carve on them yet. Not sure if I will be able to master the toe plugs. Frustrating since I really want to be period correct.