44-40 Neck Tension

[IRON JACK]

I'm having problems keeping my lyman 427098 bullets from sliding back into the case. The cases are starline nickel and brass. The bullet diameter is .429, expander ball is .423.  Please forgive me but the powder is smokeless . I know black powder would fix the problem , but I like to shoot smokeless some of the time.

after seating the bullet and crimping with factory crimp die I can squeeze them between my thumb and pointer finger and push them all the way into the case. It isn't easy but I can do it.

The problem is they are slipping into the case while in the magazine tube probably when they hit the frame when intering the carrier.

Is it possible that the new starline cases are too hard and need anealing to get some sping back into them?

Jack

[August]

Yup, Jack, I've been there too.

There is not enough neck bearing on the bullet to make any difference in cartridges being prone to collapsing.

The 44-40 must be loaded with a strong, roll crimp.

If the bullets you have do not have a crimp groove, start looking for something else that will work better.

We sometimes get away with poor roll crimps when loading black powder because the powder supports the bullet from inside the case.  But, with smokeless powder, a consistent and significant roll crimp is essential for making the gun work.

I got serious about this when a state championship match was ruined by a collapsed bullet, leaving eight in the gun.  Don't try this at home.  Get a good roll crimp working for you.

That means the case mouth must be squished down, into the crimp groove of the bullet making the mating solid as a rock.  You achieve this by lowering your seating die once you have the correct bullet depth dialed in. (relaxing the seater stem, of course, to achieve this magical point of perfection).  Some find they must seat and crimp in two stages if their dies are touchy. 

[IRON JACK]

Thanks August, do you have a buller recommendation?

Thanks again
Jack

[Abilene]

Iron Jack, if this is new brass, did you size it first?

I use the Lee Factory Crimp die on my 44-40's,  .429 bullets, and an expander plug from a .44 Mag die set, and have never had a bullet push into the case in a smokeless round.  Even though the FCD is not doing a roll crimp, I do crimp it at the crimp groove.

[w44wcf]

Iron Jack,
I had that same issue in my earlier days of learnin' to reload the .44-40. I was using an RCBS sizing die and found that it resized the neck to about .32" long.  Since the 427098 bullet seats to about .37" deep the base of the bullet was below the case neck and thus getting no support using smokeless.

I had .10" removed from the bottom portion of my resizing die so that ther neck was now long enough to support the base of the bullet.  The other option is to use a Lee Factory Crimp Die which, when set right will actually cut a crimp groove into the bullet by pushing the brass into the bullet.

For a bullet with a crimp groove for the .44-40, I would recommend the RCBS 200 (weighs 215 in w.w) or Accurate Molds
43-220C which is the 427098 with a crimp groove
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-220C-D.png
or if you think you might want to shoot b.p. someday, the 43-215C which also works well with smokeless
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-215C-D.png

w44wcf
   

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

w44wcf;  My go-to bullet for all .44s is the RCBS 44-200-FP, I assume this is the same one you mention. I drops in WW metal at .429 and easily lubrisized to .427 or whatever you need.  I use it unsized or lubrisized at .429 for .44RM/Spl/Rus. or 11.6mm Reichsrevolver.

I did notice that for many years Venturino used this bullet as his standard when reporting on most .44 articles he published.

I use LEE dies and a FCD for .44wcf.  in my OMVaqueros.  The first one I acquired needed the dies shortened slightly, while the second one would just accept ammo reloaded with the dies as manufactured. I needed .427 bullets to chamber but the same ammo worked in both Vaqueros and a re-lined Win '73 and an original Win  '92.  I saw no need in have the Ruger throats opened up.

[IRON JACK]

Thanks for all the help everyone.

Abilene, the cases are new and have been run thru sizing die

w44wcf   I will shorten my die and try that .  I like to shoot black powder but like to use smokeless to plug a ground hog every now and then and don't won't to have to clean the rifle after every shot.


Thanks again

[IRON JACK]

w44wcf, I shortenend my die .100 and that seems to have done the trick. I can no longer push the bullet in by hand.

August, I went back to the roll crimp, it's prettier than the FCD anyway.

Thanks All

Jack

[Coal Creek Griff]

I'm glad that worked for you.  A major step in solving the problem for me was the Accurate Molds 43-215C mold mentioned by w44wcf.  I find that those bullets work extremely well out of my two 44-40 guns.  I make sure that the case length is fairly even, then I can roll crimp into the crimp groove and it holds them very well.  It doesn't even take a super hard crimp to do the job.

CC Griff

[Trailrider]

Does your loaded round appear to have a "wasp waist" behind the bullet? If not, it should.  I've used regular RCBS dies for years. The sizer was intended to reduce the case for .427" bullets or maybe even .425". But I load .430". I use Winchester brass. I full length resize, and then expand with a .44 Magnum expander plug in the .44-40 expander die body. I roll crimp the mouth into the crimp groove enough so you can see the curvature, but not sufficiently to bulge the case out away from the bullet just below the crimp. The wasp waist effect will NOT shorten case life of Winchester brass. (Remington is way too thick, and Starline is a bit too thick for my tight chambered Ruger OMV's.) I don't know what the average case life of Winchester brass done this way is... I lost count at 20+ reloads! 

[IRON JACK]

Trailrider, the cartridge has the wasp waist now that I've pushed the shoulder back .100, before that the bullet was longer than the neck and extended into the shoulder area.

I actually like the roll crimp better on the 44-40, seem to do less damage the case mouth over time.

[w44wcf]

w44wcf;  My go-to bullet for all .44s is the RCBS 44-200-FP, I assume this is the same one you mention......

Sir Charles,
Yes it is the same one. It is a good shooting bullet with smokeless.

w44wcf, I shortenend my die .100 and that seems to have done the trick. I can no longer push the bullet in by hand.....
Thanks All
Jack

Jack, glad to hear that worked well for you.

w44wcf

 

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Sir Charles,
Yes it is the same one. It is a good shooting bullet with smokeless.

w44wcf 

I have some biglubes but the RCBS has never given me any trouble with blackpowder either

[w44wcf]

Sir Charles,
I have never shot it with black powder, perferring the historically correct 427098 for that use but with only Swiss and now also Olde Enysford.

I do believe that it would shoot very well with no "foul out" and good accuracy with either of those two powders for many rounds.

I would expect that since the 427098 does carry more lube than the RCBS, and since it does "foul out" (24" barrel) with Goex, Schuetzen, KIK and Diamondback with accuracy going south, at least for the smaller NRA Cowboy Silhouette targets (40-100M),
the RCBS would as well.

Chip Mate used the RCBS bullet very successfully, pushed by Swiss 1 1/2  for shooting a new record perfect 40x40 NRA Cowboy Silhouette score (pistol Cartridge).     
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,42343.0.html

w44wcf