Question for .44wcf shooters.

[wyldwylliam]

Do you guys who load and shoot this cartridge with the right powder use wads under the bullet?

I haven't been doing it lately but am wondering if doing so (would start with .030 veg. fiber wads 'cause that's what I have on hand) would potentially enhance accuracy?

Cheers.

[Abilene]

I do not use a wad but I do pour a 0.5 cc dipper of grits over the FFg, which when compressed by the bullet becomes something like a vegetable wad but somewhat less dense.

[Capt. Montgomery Little]

My question is why are you concerned about a wad?  I have been shooting 44wcf for a number of years and have found that if you use the right powder (BP) and bullet, you won't need it. I use Swiss 2F or 3F behind a Lyman 427098 with just 1/16 to 1/8 compression  and crimped just over the front driving band and accuracy is excellent with my rifle which is an Uberti 66 rifle. If the bullets are cast of pure lead, there will be enough "oomph" from the powder to bump the bullet from .427 to .429/.430. You can use wads or grits but you will lose velocity and accuracy over the original specs. Just my 2 cents worth.

[Driftwood Johnson]

No.

I tried a whole bunch of experiments years ago. I used to pan lube regular hard cast bullets with home made 50/50 beeswax/crisco lube. The thin lube groove of these bullets did not carry enough lube to keep a rifle barrel lubed for its entire length. So then I started putting in various types of grease cookies. I used to put a card wad between the grease cookie and the powder, to keep the lube from adulterating the powder. Then I discovered the hard way that my lube cookie was getting glued onto the base of the bullet, and causing it to wobble in flight, ruining accuracy. So then I started putting a card wad on either side of the lube cookie. This worked, but it was way too much work.

Then, when I started casting my own Mav-Dutchman bullets out of pure lead I was afraid that compressing the powder directly with the soft bullet would deform the base, affecting accuracy. So I loaded up some rounds with a card wad between the powder and bullet, and some without, with the bullet seated directly on the powder. I fired both types at targets set out at 50 yards. I could find no significant difference at all between the accuracy of the rounds with the wad and those without.

So these days, all my Black Powder pistol rounds, 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, and 38-40 have the bullet sitting directly on the powder, with the powder compressed between 1/16" and 1/8" by the base of the bullet.

No wads, lube cookies, fillers, or anything. It makes loading much simpler.

[Blackpowder Burn]

+1 what Driftwood said.

33 grains FFFg, Mav Dutchman, seat and crimp.  Loaded on a Dillon 650

[harleydavis]

Been shootin .44WCF for years. Most accurate rifle load that I have found for CAS. I use around 38gr 3Fg (I dont believe in wimp loads), 1/8-1/4 compresion, 205gr RNFP, finish with a Lee factory crimp die, Rock Chucker press. Never have used a wad or filler, never will. My 1860 Henry (Uberti) will pick off a clay bird at 100yds very consistantly...........provided I can see the durn thing clearly.

[August]

Do you guys who load and shoot this cartridge with the right powder use wads under the bullet?

I haven't been doing it lately but am wondering if doing so (would start with .030 veg. fiber wads 'cause that's what I have on hand) would potentially enhance accuracy?

Cheers.

At ranges out, beyond 100 yards, an over powder wad would most likely have a positive effect on accuracy. 

[Jefro]

No, fill'er up with some clean burning  Schuetzen, and 1/8" compression with a Big Lube bullet, done. Good Luck


Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[wyldwylliam]

Hugemongous thanks to all of you guys, you've told me everything I needed to know and have saved me a whole heck of a lot of experimentation. I've been using the same load as Harleydavis in my Henry and have had good luck with it out to fifty, but with the piles of winter snow have not been able to try it on paper at 100yds and beyond. Your information is a great help.

Cheers.

[wildman1]

Part of the joy of shootin BP is the experimentation. Keep track of the different loads and how they group at distances. WM

[Slowhand Bob]

I do not always follow the lawyer warnings but do think we should know about them to reason out the thought process' for ourselves.  With that said, I have read many warnings in the black powder loading books/articles, concerning the use of wads (some even say fillers) in bottleneck or tapered cases.  As it refers to actual wads I can see the possible concerns but if my logic is correct it would only apply if the combined bullet and wad length exceeded the depth of the neck taper.  Are they worried about small air pockets/ loose powder around the 'pressed in' or unsupported wad?  Is it possible that I am misinterpreting what these warnings are about?

[August]

Is it possible that I am misinterpreting what these warnings are about?

In my world, an 'over powder' wad is a thin (.030-.060), hard, barrier between the (burning) powder and the base of the bullet.  I load these by using a compression die to 'seat' the wad, then seat the bullet a little bit further and crimp.  So, there is no air space.  The purpose of the over powder wad is to protect the base of the bullet from erosion during combustion.  I get less leading in loads with over powder wads than I do in loads without them.  That causes me to conclude that there is some protection being provided to the integrity of the bullet from the use of over powder wads.

Fillers are a different story altogether.  In this case (no pun intended), the wad, or filler, is substantially thicker than in the case of the over powder use of wads.  I have pretty bad arthritis and find that LARGE caliber handguns of the 1873 type are very difficult to hang onto (for me) without reducing the powder charge.  For this, there are many things that can be used as fillers.  The best I've found is 'Fluvel", which is activated charcoal.  The Fluvel acts just like powder when compressing the load with bullet seating and avoids any air gaps in the charge.

Fillers in smokeless powder loads have proved to be a very dangerous proposition for me.  I've ruined one very expensive hi-wall by ringing the chamber as the result of detonation from using dacron over powder wads.  Here, it seems, there are two kinds of guys -- people who say it's no problem, and people like me who've learned the hard way that it can be a problem.  Air space in low density smokeless loads can be very dangerous in my experience.

So, apples to apples, and all that.

[harleydavis]

I have pretty bad arthritis and find that LARGE caliber handguns of the 1873 type are very difficult to hang onto (for me) without reducing the powder charge.

My .45 Colt full case loads do recoil but BP recoil is not so bad as smokeless. Now then, when I started shooting NCOWS in the early 1990's my belief was (and still is) that the loads should be like they used "back in the day". If they kick a bit, so be it. When my .45 slugs hit the steel, there is no question of a hit. Compared to some of the wimp loads I started to see on the firing line in the early 2000's that barely made a sound, my shoots were like a cannon!!! Fast forward another 10+ years and I can sympatize with the difficulty of hanging on anymore. Jeez, this gittin old aint fer wimps is it? I dont like to think of the day when I need to consider a lighter load to be able to hang on to the revolver, however,  I have noticed that my new '51 conversion in .38 Special and my Open Top in .44 Russian seem to be real pleasures to shoot!!

[wyldwylliam]

I don't know enough about the subject of the potential dangers of wads in tapered or bottleneck cartridges to comment with any authority, but in my .45-75 I do use an over powder wad to protect the bullet base. Experimentation has shown that there is a definite improvement in accuracy doing this as opposed to using no wad.

I've carefully measured things and with the bullet seated so that I can get just enough crimp over the fwd. driving band to keep things together in the magazine of my '76, the wad is just at the level of where the neck begins to swell. I would like to use a grease cookie in this cartridge, but doing so would let the wad column protrude too far into the case.

With cartridges like the  the .45govt., I've never worried about the slight taper of the case, and in the .45-70 I do use a grease cookie and have never before run into any warnings about potential pressure or other kinds of problems in slightly tapered cases.

If anyone knows of evidence that wads in tapered cases increase pressure or otherwise cause dangerous situations, I for one one be grateful to hear of it.

Cheers and thanks again for the good information.

[Fairshake]

I shoot nothing but the 44WCF cartridge in my SASS matches from my USFA revolvers and my Uberti 73. I believe in firing nothing but full cases of powder so that I'm shooting the same as was done in that time period.
The 44WCF has that very slight case taper which makes it shoot the BP 2F almost as clean as that new fad powder.
I used the 45 Colt for a few years and even with the cases annealed and filled to the brim, I still had blow back. Not so with the 44WCF.
Now to answer your question. I was playing around one day and decided to try loading only 25 grains of 2F and fill the case with grits for a reduced load. A fellow SASS shooter who is a gamer wanted to know if it could be done. I placed the .030 fiber wad over the 2F and then topped off the case with grits. They all worked fine and were similar to when I fired 45 Schofield in my 45 Colts.
I did not see any difference on the SASS targets but when I shot paper they were less accurate. I use a modified 427098 bullet that I had Tom at Accurate Molds make me. I had him open up the grease grooves and square the corners for more lube containment. It is the same bullet that Winchester introduced with the 44WCF in 1873. Lyman has changed the bullet over the years so that the grooves are shallow and rounded. This has been a very accurate bullet for me to use. I have two shooters who ask me for them all the time. They say they are better than any they have purchased.
Your 44WCF will not have any problems with using the .030 wads if you wish but try a few without and see the difference for yourself.

[wildman1]

I shoot 45 Colt and 44/40 depending on how I feel at the time for SASS matches, sometimes I will shoot revolvers in one cal and rifle in another. The 44/40 never has any blowback without annealing. The 45 Colt, in rifle and revolvers have no blowback after the cases have been annealed. This is with loads ranging from 17gs 2f to 35gs 2f. WM

[rifle]

The cases of detonation with wads and fillers and all aren't caused by proper load chains and proper wads like the vegetable wads used in Black Powder Cardridges. The detonation happens when the wads/filler is too soft or cushion-y. The powder compresses the improper wads/filler easily and builds pressure then.......the pressure peaks against the bullet that acts like an obstruction since it isn't a cushion and moves with more weight ect.ect..
It's the peak in pressure when the pressure that is generated compresses the wads/filler and then hits the bullet that in this case acts like an obstruction and peaks the pressure.
Never  build a load chain in a cartidge or muzzleloader rifle that is soft and compressable where the wads/filler are. It's that "cushion compressing" under the bullet that does the damage.

[Dick Dastardly]

The 44-40 cartridge, originally designed for black powder, is well regraded as a true Old West classic.  The 45 Colt was never chambered in rifles and the 44 Special was regarded as a pistol cartridge.  Possibly the only true contender to the venerable 44-40 is the slightly more necked down 38-40.

Big Lube has a bullet design for both.  The Mav Dutchman 200 grain Big Lube®LLC bullet hauls plenty of lube for a 30" and longer barrel and leaves a nice lube star on the muzzle.  Fouling is wet and blows out with the following shot.  Accuracy is good from your second shot to your last shot of the match with no need to clean between stages to maintain accuracy or function.  Same goes for the 190 grain 38-40 bullet.

No need for cookies, cards or accoutrements.  Just lube size and load.  You're good to go.  Life is good.

DD-MDA

[rifle]

You know.........life is good being able to shoot black powder,as it was done backin the day, and have bullets made especially for that application. Of course the shooting of the Holy Black without the hardships of terrible fouling is done thanks to the Gentleman and Scholar ole Dick Dastardly.(and the techs. that helped develope the bullets)
Thanks for bringing the bullets to the Hombres that do it right and shoot the Holy Black. Yer alright Dick D.
I wonder what will be some day ifin you retire,Dick, and don't offer the moulds to the throngs anymore? Will Hombres have to revert back to struggling with lube pills/grease cookies and looking for bullets ,in vain, that hold enough lube?
What's in store for the future?
Anywhooooo......personally I'd not use wads with loads using the Holy Black in the lever actions. I'd want some gas to get by the back driving band and into the "lube area" and push that lube out onto the barrel walls. I'd be glad not to have to do the extra chore of inserting wads in the cases while churnin out ammo loaded with the Holy Black. I load black powder loads with my Hornady black powder measure screwed right into the turret with the dies. The black meters pretty well tru it.
I'd use vegetable wads for long range loads like 45/70 where all that one can do to improve accuracy would be done. Rifles like the lever actions and their "range" limits don't need the wads. I thunk they'd shoot well enough without them. I know the rifles,at least the ones with the good barrels, can shoot "way out there" pretty well and hit stuff but the range fer them is more like around 200 paces or so right? I've shot my Uberti 1873 Winchester "way out there" and eliminated pesky ground hogs digging holes (big holes too) in farm fields. You know....out around 400 paces or so but.......I'd just as soon creep aound thru the woods if possible and keep the range at about 100 to 150 paces. The range fer CASS shooting isn't all that far? 

[Noz]

When I first began shooting BP in CAS I used 41 mags for everything. Pistols no problem But my Marlin would foul badly after 5 or 6 rounds so that accuracy was a some time thing. I went to a lubed felt wad to add lube to the load. The rifle did not foul but the wads, as Driftwood said, would stick to the base of the bullet and cause some spectacular inaccuracy.
When I went to cap and ball I also went to 44-40. I've tried with and with out wads and with and with out filler and now load a MavDutchman with 1/8" compression of a pile of FFg. Best solution and easiest to load.