Idea for 1851 cartridge conversion

[Graveyard Jack]

HH's .41Colt conversion on the .36's to use got me to thinking. I really don't want to fool with heeled or hollow-based bullets or special dies but would like to take it a step further and be able to use commonly available commercial cast bullets.

Two options:

1. Rechamber a Kirst gated conversion to use a straightwalled .40 caliber cartridge that utilizes standard .38-40/10mm bullets. Something of a shortened .401Powermag. Cases formed by running .41Mag brass through a carbide 10mm sizer and then trimmed to whatever length would be appropriate.

2. Rechamber a Kirst gated conversion to the .41Spl or an abbreviated version of it. Use standard .41Mag cast bullets. Trim .41Mag brass to length and reload on .41Mag dies.

Either one would require relining the barrel but I think the end result would be more than worth it.

[pony express]

If you're going to reline the barrel anyway, and you don't want to fool with oddball stuff, why not just make it a .38?

[Graveyard Jack]

If all I wanted was a .38, I'd just buy one. I also don't consider .401" or .412" commercial cast bullets as "oddball". I already keep a steady supply of .401's for my .38-40's and .41's are easy enough to find. It's bigger than a .38 yet simpler than the .41Colt, it retains the handling qualities of the Navy, it's a six shot and it's different. Yet it would utilize readily available commercial cast bullets, as I lack the desire and the time to cast my own. All reason enough for me.

To be clear, I'm looking more for reasons why it won't work, rather than excuses not to do it.

[pony express]

Hmmm... Just speculating...I doubt if you can get 6 shots of .41 size cases in a '51 navy cylinder, maybe later I can dig out my Navy and measure. Maybe if you went with a rimless case, just use a .40S&W, it MIGHT fit. If you go with a 5 shot cylinder, then it would fit easily. You could use a.44 cal navy and one of the 5 shot .45colt cylinders, then sleeve the chambers and barrel to fit either cartridge.

The .41 long colt case is just barely bigger than a .38 spl, that's why 6 can still fit. Also, I think HH's .41 conversion eliminates the need for hollow or heel base bullets, but still leaves you with needing a solid base, odd diameter .375 bullet.

[rifle]

I'd consider doing the measurements,lining the barrel and rechambering a Kirst cylinder.All exacting work and if a person isn't going to do it "home brew" with craftmanship  skills they have and the tooling then it comes down to "money"and finding a good gunsmith to do the work. First off would be the gunsmith wanting to take the time to do a feasibility study.
There may be odd ball work to do like turning case heads down to a smaller diameter .........and maybe machining the index ratchets off the cylinder and changing the placement of those to line up between the chambers (so case head placement doesn't take away too much of the ratchet thickness)instead of even with them like the percussion cylinders. Then using a double pawl hand that may need fabricated.
Once getting into it things that are unexpected could pop up. Just have to start measuring and see how far along you get.
If using a gunsmith then make sure he/she is a good machinist. Ask the smith what method they use to line up to an existing hole(like chambers) to machine the chambers fer a bigger diameter case. Seems like a lot of machinist can drill new holes where need be but are lacking when it comes to exact centering on an existing hole. Wouldn't want new chambers to be out of range aligning to the bore.
I would consider the old saying,"easier said then done". I guess one would need to start considering and measuring everything to study feasibility. That takes time and careful consideration.
How would one study the pressure concearns in a 38 chambered cylinder honed out to 40cal? ect.ect ect.
Sometimes making something "different" is more a pain in the arse then it seems at first.
Consider that a 38 special inverted wadcutter(accessable) moved along at close to 800fps will expand to much more the original diameter and penetrate over five inches into packed wet news paper.... and then wonder why a 40cal. moved along the same speed would be a good idea.
The reason people want something different in a 36cal percussion converted to cartridge revolvers is the large bore diameter. If one doesn't mind "just relining a barrel for a common found bullet like 38's " why not just use the Howell conversion that has chamber throats sized for nominal diameter 38's and go the easy way up the hill? 

[Graveyard Jack]

I understand all that. I've had four custom revolvers built and know what kind of planning and thought needs to go into something that's "different". What I really need to figure out is whether or not there is enough room in the cylinder for the rechamber with an acceptable margin of safety.

It's also possible that Starline .41Colt cases could be used for either chambering. Which should eliminate any issue with rim interference.

Like I said, if I wanted a .38Spl, I'd just buy one.

[Hoof Hearted]

Well it looks like you have come full circle

Just have me rechamber a Kirst ot Thuer to 41 Colt.
Buy a set of Redding dies.
Order a mould from Bernie (my design is a .146gr, 2 lube groove that shoots pretty dern close to POA).
Fireform some 38 Specials.

And away you go w/o most of the work you described above and you are shooting a .386 instead of a .357.........

Regards, HH

I understand all that. I've had four custom revolvers built and know what kind of planning and thought needs to go into something that's "different". What I really need to figure out is whether or not there is enough room in the cylinder for the rechamber with an acceptable margin of safety.

It's also possible that Starline .41Colt cases could be used for either chambering. Which should eliminate any issue with rim interference.

Like I said, if I wanted a .38Spl, I'd just buy one.

[Graveyard Jack]

But I don't cast, nor do I want to. I'm willing to spend the money to make it happen. I just don't have the time or inclination to cast. If it can't be built to use inside-lubed .401's, I'll just buy a .38Spl.

[Hoof Hearted]

Well that limits you to buying what the Italians wanna sell you and I understand that (I don't abide by it but I understand it).

You aren't the first person wanting to challenge the limits of Colt's design but remember that our current cartridges were DESIGNED TO FIT these revolvers and those designers fit the LARGEST cartridge they could into them.

I am currently shopping around for a caster to cast the .386 41 "Thuer®" bullets. While it would seem easy to find someone the opposite seems to be true do to quality, timeliness, and other concerns.

Regards, HH

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Why not buy the Uberti 1851 Colt conversion revolvers.  I have a pair that give great service.

[Graveyard Jack]

Why not buy the Uberti 1851 Colt conversion revolvers.  I have a pair that give great service.

That's probably what I'll do.

[Hoof Hearted]

That's probably what I'll do.

CraigC

I'm glad this all worked out for ya!
Sure don't want you to think we we're being arguementative just trying to help a pard out!

Regards, HH

[Graveyard Jack]

Not at all, the .41Colt conversion just got me to thinking. I just wondered if there was enough room for a slightly bigger cartridge. A bigger bullet AND commonly available, inside-lubed commercial cast bullets sounded like a win-win to me.

[Graveyard Jack]

Not doing that either. No casting, no heeled bullets from specialty casters that might decide to close their business tomorrow and no converting a .36 to a .38 without relining the barrel. I can buy a ready to go 1851 Richards-Mason for less than $500. I can tune it myself and use the .358" bullets I already keep on hand. I can also load it on my Dillon without any changes.

Or I can buy a Uberti/Pietta 1851 .36 for $300 and spend $700 for a Kirst gated conversion with ejector, installation, new front sight and action work. Only to have to use heeled bullets and procure special dies. Nor will I spend another $300-400 to do so with an inferior Colt. For what I'd spend on that job, I could buy the Uberti Richards-Mason, tune it myself, have it engraved and refinished by Turnbull. I'd end up with a better sixgun, better and more authentic finishes, engraving and more gun for my money.

Sorry but it just ain't worth it to me to spend a whole lot more money and go to a lot more effort just to be able to use "authentic" heeled bullets. I use .430's in my .44Colt 1860 Type II and 1871-1872 Open Top, .452's in my 3rd Model Dragoon with Kirst gated conversion with the same dies and components I use for my .44Spl, .44Mag and .45Colt sixguns. That's how I like it. I have more money than time and would rather spend what little free time I do have on leatherwork, shooting or hunting than sitting at the reloading bench. Which is why I'm more willing to spend the money to get a .401" than the time to use .386's.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I think you have found the most reasonable solution.  Get a '51 Richard Mason.

[Graveyard Jack]

Why would I want to start a business that is a niche within a niche doing something that I don't even care to do for myself??? I've got a six month backlog on leather work and a 365 day a year business that pays the bills. I have plenty to do. 

No, I think I'll stick to bullets that I can buy. I swear, bullet casters just can't comprehend that not everybody wants to cast.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]