chamber fouling in 357 rifle with 38s

[JerseyJD]

I am still a relative newbie with black powder and am experiencing a problem with my Uberti 1873 357 rifle. Using 38 special cases, 1.3 CCs of KIK FF, and  snakebite greasewagon bullets with black powder lube, I'm fighting the lever after 7 or 8 rounds. Cleaning between stages with a swab of moosemilk, I'm good to go until the next stage where the chamber fouling repeats. I don't experience similar problems with 777 but would prefer to use black powder. Any suggestions would be appreciated (e.g., FFF instead of FF, 357 cases, another brand of powder, tighter crimp?)     

[hellgate]

Try a fairly deep crimp to see if you get a better build up of pressure for sealing the chamber before it lets go of the bullet. 38SPL brass is cheap and plentiful so getting  a few case mouth cracks is not a big deal. The 38 brass is thinner than 357 brass unless it is +P or military brass. I finally gave up on BP in my 357 Rossi '92s not due to chamber fouling but due to either barrel fouling or inaccuracy. I had a load that I could shoot all day but shot a 5-6 inch groups at 50 yds and another load that got 1.5" 50yd groups but I needed to do a pull through wet swab between stages (getting splatter on my shirts). I finally settled on 777 in the 357 and BP in the pistols and shotgun. Works for me. I would have used the Snakebite bullet with BP but it did not give reliable feeding which is an imperative for a '92.

[Blair]

How many grains of powder weight, does 1.3 CC's equate to?
Sorry, I have no experiance with CC's used to measure powder. (I guess I am old school)
 Blair

[JerseyJD]

I believe the grain equivalent in weight was about 17.6 the last time I checked.

[Blair]

JerseyJD,

16 to 18 grains of black powder in a .38 cal should be enough to allow the case to expand and seal any blow by in the chamber. (this blow by would of course cause fowling in the chamber)
KIK powder may be an issue?
I know it is a black powder, but, I have heard mixed reviews of its quality and uniformity. I have never used it so I can't comment on it beyond what I have read.
I would suggest either Goex or Swiss in an fffg granulation equivalent per manufacture specs.
I hope you find this helpful,
  Blair

[August]

Well, you say you're using a "Snakebite Greasewagon" bullet.  But, you don't say the source of the bullet.  Did you cast these yourself? 

Unless you got these from Mark Whyte (whose bullets are tip-top quality always), I'm gonna go way out on a limb here and guess you've got bullets with lead that is way too hard for the job at hand.

I get a lot of fouling, but having the fouling stop a cartridge from entering the chamber has happened close to zero times for me.  Having shot hundreds of matches with .38 black powder loads, I have never experienced the problem you describe.  I've used bullets that I cast at 30/1 (lead/tin) and bullets from Mark.

Hard lead bullets would allow the powder to burn up, along the sides of the bullet, resulting in lead being burnt off and deposited in the chamber.  It seems like only lead fouling could cause the problem you describe.

I've probably said too much before hearing your answer to the question about the source of the bullets.  But, I suspect the alloy is the problem.

[JerseyJD]

Interesting comment on the alloy composition.  I cast the bullets myself but I'm not very precise on the composition. I have been using a 50/50 mix of lead picked up at matches and a soft leadtaken from stock on wheel weights.  I use the soft lead alone for casting round balls for my Remmies and have no trouble ramming them home

[Jefro]

Howdy JerseyJD, try a good clean burning powder like Schuetzen in 3f. I've shot a 12 stage state match with a 73, Snakebites,  and 3f Schuetzen. I did spray a little Murphys mix in the action and down the pipe on the second morning, everything ran fine. I also use mostly wheel weights with about a 10BH. What kind of lube are you using?? Usually that kind of fouling is from lube starvation. Is there a lube star at the end of the muzzle, that'll tell you if you are getting enough lube. Good Luck


Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[hellgate]

When you say you are fighting the lever, I'm assuming you are having problems either extracting fired cases or trouble chambering. As I said, try a harder crimp, maybe even a bigger charge of powder and consider annealing a few case mouths to see if that helps to get a better seal. I would recommend a factory crimp die from LEE Precision as a final treatment to make sure any bulged cases are "ironed out". I run all my loaded cases through the factory die and occasionally there is an oversized bullet or a bulged case that gets sized down to guarantee feeding.

[JerseyJD]

Thanks guys. You really provided a lot of good advice with a number of adjustments to my current routine for consideration. Happy shooting to you all.

[fourfingersofdeath]

I would recommend a 44WCF! haha, but that's just me. Got to go with what you've got, as my old Mum says, 'got to cut the cloth according to it's width.'

[JerseyJD]

Maybe someday for a 44 Wcf or 38 Wcf.  Today I'm paying dental bills.

[August]

Oh, one more thing!  Have a competent 'smith check the headspace of your rifle.  

Excessive headspace with the straight-walled, .38 special case can result in excessive (!) chamber fouling.  

Any headspace above .005 can result in more chamber fouling than is necessary.  Many guys are running .38 special rifles with much more headspace than that due to wear and the inevitable bending of the soft levers that Uberti provides for their rifles.  As the lever bends, the headspace increases.  

So, have your headspace checked with the type of cases you use.  (different cases result in varied headspace, so sticking with one brand of brass helps with this issue -- assuming the rifle is set-up for that brand of brass).  One palliative here is to use Starline brass, which has the thickest rims of the common brands.  Thicker rims, of course, reduce headspace.

This is not as much of an issue on the WCF chambered rifles, but can be a big issue with straight walled chambers and the use of black powder.  My experience is that a rifle with proper headspace will easily run all day, but one with excessive headspace will start to balk after three or four stages -- sometimes sooner with a rifle that is badly out of specified headspace dimensions.  It can be tough to get a cowboy 'smith to address the specific issues of setting up a straight-walled caliber rifle for black powder.  98% of their business is from guys who only shoot smokeless powder.  So, they tend to dismiss us with an admonishment to acquire a rifle in one of the WCF calibers.  But, the .38 special makes a superb black powder race gun if the gun is properly set-up.

You can get a quick, down and dirty, estimation of your rifle's headspace by looking at the gas cuts on the sides of the elevator shaft, near the chamber.

[w44wcf]

JerseyJD,
Sorry to hear of your troubles.  My suggestion would be no crimp. That's the way I run b.p. .38's in my .357 rifle. Great accuracy with nary an issue.  The reason I suggest no crimp is to lessen the chance of b.p. fouling getting back around the case. Perhaps you are getting some fouling build up between the case and the chamber(?). If so, not crimping will help.

August,
Hmmm.... I don't see how headspace would cause an issue with excessive fouling. I can see how an excess amount of windage in the chamber could allow fouling to build to a point where it may impede the chambering of a cartridge.

w44wcf 

[rifle]

Might want to measure the cases after they are crimped to see if an excessive crimp may be bulging the case some in a tight tolerance chamber.
Might want to try a taper crimp die like RCBS sells.
Some Cerrosafe chamber cast stuff could tell if the chamber is oversize or under size in tolerance. Different dies size different. Might try another sizing die that doesn't size as much or sizes more depending on the chamber size diameter.
Checking the over-all length of the cartridges may shed some light on the problem if the bullets are hitting the lead-in of the rifling lands. Especially after it fouls some.....the fouling could impede the chambering of a longer cartridge even if that cartridge loads well at first.
You might try running a few "fire formed" cartridge cases thru the gun to see if they seal better and see if they feed. Might want to "neck size" only.
In a 357 chamber running 38 specials and then going back to 357 may have the 38's putting hard fouling in the chamber where the short cartridge dirties it up to impede the longer 357 cases chambering.
If using FFg powder try some FFFg. If using FFFg then try some FFFFg. If the load of FFg is fouling then try some compression with a lil more powder. Compression of the powder raises the pressures. Might seal better.

[Noz]

KIK FFg is my powder of choice for 1860 Armys, 1866 44-40 and 12 ga.

[August]

August,
Hmmm.... I don't see how headspace would cause an issue with excessive fouling. I can see how an excess amount of windage in the chamber could allow fouling to build to a point where it may impede the chambering of a cartridge.

w44wcf 

Well, you may be correct that headspace is not related to fouling.  But after having one of my rifles 'smithed, it came back to me with a great deal more headspace than before the work was done.  From that time on, I had a terrible time with fouling -- but, never before.  I always believed the increase in headspace caused the problem.  At any rate, proper headspace is important for many reasons.   Good to know you're keeping me honest!  All the best to you!

[JerseyJD]

Thanks August. I stopped by my gun smith today with the rifle due to extraction problems. Once I also mentioned the chamber fouling with black powder he immediately suspected a head space issue.   It's now in his queue for testing.

[cpt dan blodgett]

The folks over at the Black Powder Cartridge Rifle (BPCR) forum are all the time talking about chamber fouling with short cases and the need to stretch cases.  They are concerned with .030 or less shortness in the case.  With a 38 in a 357 chamber you are starting .130 short.  That is a big area to catch crud.  Once crud starts building even more crud will stick.

Not quite the same thing but my Sharps 45-70 requires wiping the chamber every round or two if I am lucky.  Added a lube cookie under the bullet and can get by for 10 rounds without wiping chamber.

I would try same bullet and lube, same powder, same load with the addition of lube cookie or filler in a 357 case, or maybe increase the charge to allow some compression in the 357 case.  Jury may still be out on a little air space in a pistol case with BP, but why tempt fate.