Right Trapdoor bullet mold?

[wyldwylliam]

Hey Compadres.

Can anyone tell me which available mold most accurately duplicates the old, original 500gr roundnose Government bullet for the Springfileld .45-70 rifle? I seem to be having trouble finding one.

Thanks kindly.

[pony express]

How about this one?

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/mould-details-rifles.php?entryID=79

[Tater Pickens]

For those of us who don't cast our own can anyone tell me who casts and sells that bullet commercially..spg lubed for BP

Thanks,

Tater

[wyldwylliam]

Man, I feel rather foolish now. Don't know how I missed that one. Musta had the sun in my eyes.

Much obliged, Pony Xpress.

I live in Canada Tater, so can't be of any assistance directly, but you might try Buffalo Arms. We're not allowed to import bullets, but those guys have a lot of different offerings in the way of lead pills.

[Mean Bob Mean]

For those of us who don't cast our own can anyone tell me who casts and sells that bullet commercially..spg lubed for BP

Well, as I recall the "original" 1873 load for the .45-70 was the 405 grain round nose (70 or 55 grains of powder) and it is a fantatstic bullet to load and shoot in your trapdoor.  Lyman's 457-124 throws the 405.  The government moved to a 500 grain load later.  

Moyer's has both 405 and 500 SAECO bullets, both appropriate.  See them here:  http://www.moyerscastbullets.com/pricelist.html

Track of the Wolf also carries them but they are currently out.  Go here:  http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/239/1/BULLET-458-405 and ask them to notify you when they come in.  They have a 500 grain as well.  

Montana Bullet works also casts the original 405 http://www.montanabulletworks.com/BB_45_caliber.html

Check Meister as well for a few decent 458s:  http://www.meisterbullets.com/asccustompages/products.asp?CategoryId=22&Start=30

[texcl]

Lyman makes both the 405 and 500 grain original style molds. When  my father and I first started collecting guns, when I was 9 or so we bought  an early 73 trapdoor with the high arch early sights and it was heaven fort marked.  We paid like $150  for it and he gave us a mixed bag of old 45_70 loads. They all had copper primers and when  we went to fire them they were loaded with B P.  Believe it or not they all went off , wish we had kept them now but they weren't  worth anything back then. We fell in love with the trapdoor and collected a bunch of them, and never paid more than $250 for them.

[Drydock]

Just FYI, the Lyman 405 and 500 grainers are NOT correct for the milspec loadings of the .45-70.  They were a long time ago, but Lyman changed the moluds over the years, and while very good bullets, they no longer duplicate the original projectiles.

The original 405 had three large grooves and a hollow base.  Both Lee and NEI make this Mould. NEI #344A

The orginal M1881 long range bullet also had 3 grooves, and a shorter bearing body than the Lyman mould.  NEI makes this mould, #347.  Saeco also makes this as well.

[Ranch 13]

For those of us who don't cast our own can anyone tell me who casts and sells that bullet commercially..spg lubed for BP

Thanks,

Tater

http://www.montanabulletworks.com/BB_45_caliber.html
http://www.cheycast.com/catalog.htm

[Roosterman]

I use the saeco 1881 500gr, excellent bullet.

[wyldwylliam]

Great further info Fellows.

I already have the Lyman 405, but my RIFLE was made in 1883, so am figuring it is meant to use the 500 grainer. Don't know if they changed the twist rate from the earlier rifles which were meant to fire the 405, and/or if the sights are regulated for it, but figure best results will come from using as close as possible to the right load. And secondarily, just wanting for sake of authenticity and aesthetics to use the original load for this gun.

It was almost 50 years ago now that I fired my first center fire rifle, and it was a Trapdoor. Can remember it like it was yesterday. I still smile every time I remember it. That rifle belonged to a very knowledgeable friend of the family and even back then he had it loaded with lead bullets and black powder. I lost it somewhere along the road but for years I still had one of those huge bullets we dug out of a sand dune out in the desert of southern New Mexico.

[Drydock]

The twist rate was unchanged for the production life of the rifle, and any trapdoor will shoot either bullet well.  The principle difference is the sights.  Anything other than the M1884 Infantry Buffington was regulated for the 405 grainer.  Only the Infantry Buffington sight was regulated for the 500 grain bullet

Your 1883 may very well have the M1879 sight, thus regulated for the 405 grain HB bullet.  Though the 500 grain bullet was adopted in 1881, prior to 1884 it was meant for the Armys long range and target compitition rifles.  It was only placed in General service in 1884.

May I highly reccomend this book and site:   http://www.4570book.info/

[wyldwylliam]

Col. Drydock, I am in you debt.

My rifle does in fact have the '79 sights and it is most edifying to now know the right bullet for this gun.

I shall also order that book forthwith.

If I may impose on your good graces once again, can you shed any light on why the comb is so high relative to the sight plane? I am able to get on the sights comfortably of any number of other antique rifles and carbines as well as several repro's, but to find the sights properly on this trapdoor I have to really work at it and it means that the comb is jambed right up against my cheekbone, which is rather painful under recoil.

Was it perhaps because of a different stature of men back then? Or?

In any event, many thanks.

I remain your obdn't servant,

wyldwylliam.

[Drydock]

I suspect a combination of historical stature and goverment parsimony

The stock dimensions of the M1873 and its derivitives are based on the 1861 rifled musket, which is based on the 1855 rifled musket, which is based on the 1842 percussion musket, which is based on the 1816 musket, which is based on the 1795 musket! And of course, the 1795 was based on the French Charlieville, going clear back to the turn of the 17th century.  IE all these weapon stocks were made on the same machinery, using roughly the same stock dimensions.  The comb and butt were changed somwhat from 1795 to 1842, but in general the dimesions were in the same neighborhood.

In a flintlock smoothbore, there are no rear sights, instead, in order to get consistant volley fire the soldiers were instructed to get their cheek HARD against that comb, to prevent high firing.  Over the years this has become even more exaggerated with the change in stature of modern men. 

One must also consider that unlike sporting arms of the 19th century period, where shots were expected to picked and close, these newly rifled Military weapons were expected to engage at longer ranges, especialy in volley fire conditions.  Thus the tight comb was retained, as benifical to using those new rear sights at longer ranges, given the high tracectory of black powder rounds.  A Trapdoor is more comfortable to shoot at 400 yards than at 50, as you will find.

Come on over to the Barracks sometime!

[wyldwylliam]

Thank you most kindly, Sir.

Your knowledge of the subject is fantastic and I appreciate you taking the time to educate me. Makes a lot of sense.

W

[Noz]

I lower my head and cover my eyes in shame but I have been shooting the 350 bullet with some success.

[wyldwylliam]

I have no doubt. The 350 fp works great in my Win. .45-75. Glad it works for you. What kinda groups you gettin'?