Stem on 1851 Navy wiggles

[Doug.38PR]

The stem that the cylinder slides onto and rotates on wiggles on my Pietta Navy.  How can this be fixed?  I unscrewed it years ago to be able to clean the inside of the gun a a little better and now it wiggles a little.  I can't loosen it or tighten it.

[Fingers McGee]

There is a staking pin that holds the Arbor and keeps it from turning.  You can tighten it up by removing the pin, cleaning the threads good, adding a shim and tightening the arbor then replacing the pin.  I've also heard that locktite will work.

[Coffinmaker]

If the wedge seats tight and the gun groups, the barrel doesn't wiggle, it's a non issue.  Unless it's really loose, it's more trouble to remedy  than its worth.  Removing the arbor is completely unnecessary.

Coffinmaker

[rifle]

One thing to know fer sure no doubt........is that a Colt that is a little loose and is still shot with the wedge pushed in further or whatever ....the rate of looseness will accelerate and get looser fast. That is how so many older Colts get so trashed. Shooting them after the arbor or the wedge gets any loose to it. Again....... A Colt that is loose and is shot will get looser relatively fast. If the arbor or barrel or wedge is loose don't shoot the Colt till it's fixed. If you do shoot it when loose then when the gun is finally fixed it'll take more to fix it.
Take a Colt with a loose arbor.......stick the wedge in and tap it in till it's tight. Take the gun and by hand try to bend the gun at the frame/barrel juntion. You'll see the space between the frame and the barrels lug open and close. If that can be done by hand then....it happens even a lot more by shooting the gun. That can enlarge frame pin holes in barrels and flex the frame pins and puts undo stress on the front of the arbor slot suface and the rear of the barrels slots and the surfaces of the wedge.
When a Colt is loose in those areas the parts "do" move when the gun is fired even if it seems they don't. The parts are unstable when loose and use any loose to put stress on the parts till they deform and move some more and make themselves more loose. There is already too much loose to the parts due to machining tolerances when the gun is new and if the loose gets noticable then it is "too much" and needs tightened up. Just don't shoot the gun with a loose arbor. Big no no.
Is the gun a brass framer? It may not have a lock pin in the rear end of the arbor if it is. If it's steel framed it'll have the lockpin and to turn the arbor it(lock pin) needs removed.
It needs drilled out with small drill bits to start the hole and then get bigger and bigger with the drill till all that is left is a thin shell of a tube that was the pin. Screw the arbor in and out a little and the pin may just drop out. If not then stick something in the tube(drilled pin) and ,sorta, wrench it out.
If the loose in the arbor is tiny then a steel shim may be difficult to insert at the shoulder to take up space and tighten the arbor properly. The shim may need to be too thin to work with unless you use actual steel shim stock exactly the right thickness and cut the shim out of the stock sheet with scissors and single edged razor. If done right it's not noticable after the arbor is screwed back in.
The idea is  to get the arbors shoulder tight against the frame once again like it was when it was new. Use of lead or loctite ect.ect. won't last long. It's the shoulder that needs be up against the frame and not just the threads filled in with stuff. It needs to be metal arbor shoulder against the guns metal frame.
If you do use a shim it needs to be split at one point like a lock washer to be made and squeezed around the arbor at that point that is less diameter than the diameter of the threaded part next to the arbor shoulder.
Anywhooooo......if the arbor is just a little loose then use the "blacksmith" type fix to set the shoulder of the abor "back" to take up the loose space. Take the arbor out of the gun. Set the corner of the shoulder of the arbor at the right angle(eye ball it) on a hard steel surface like the anvil part of a vise and....use a small hammer to hit the corner of the arbor to set the metal back to take up the space. Trial and error hitting the arbor a little all the away around evenly and then screwing it in the gun to see where the arbor stops lets you set the metal back without going too far and not being able to turn the arbor to where the arbor wedge slots line up with the barrels wedge slots.
You want to have the arbor get tight a little before it's where it should be so the last little bit of turn to set the arbor slot even with the barrels slots really tightens the arbor up. Like the last little bit of turn to the arbor needs some effort to turn into it's final position.
If the arbor stays straight you're fine. If it isn't straight then backing the arbor out and setting metal back on one side or the other to set it straight needs done. Setting the metal back on one side or the other and....taper that set back into the first set back so the surface around the arbor shoulder is all flush with the frame when the arbor is screwed in tight. Know what I mean?
It's only logical to see that if the arbor is out of the gun to clean the parts nice to use loctite or whatever a person may as well go ahead and skip the loctite stuff and fix the gun right.
If you doubt your ability to do the job right...not everyone is a mechanic or gunsmith..... then have it done by one of the gunsmiths here on this forum. Plenty of them are here. If you want to do it yourself to save a few bucks and can't make the shim the exact right thickness or set the shoulder back the "blacksmith" way then....use loctite after you take the arbor out so all the mating parts can be cleaned REAL GOOD and ....it'll last awhile....maybe forever .....depending if you shoot the gun a lot or a little.

[Doug.38PR]

Okay, upon closer examination, it's not the rod the cylinder rotates on so much.  It's actually how far the barrel pin is pushed in when the barrel is installed.  If I put it in all the way, it's fine but if it is backed out wo where the spring lip just catches and holds it in it wiggles some.  (I may have the terminology all messed up, does that make sense?)  It kinda sounds like it ties into what rifle was saying

[rifle]

Yep, ya need the wedge in tight enough so the barrel doesn't wiggle. Don't matter where the springntipis it's all in whether or not the barrel is tightened by the wedge.
Any problems with the guns cylinder gap when the wedge is in tight? Does the cylinder get pinched by the barrel and turn hard when the wedge is tight? Problem.....
Some cap&ballers I have with a arbor hole in the barrel that is on the "way loose" side of the tolerance specs. I'll insert a shim in the barrels hole with the arbor being inserted in the barrel. I cut a certain thickness shim stock with scissors so the shim is put on top of the arbor above where the wedge slot is. A littlelonger than the wedge slot. The shim doesn't wrap arounf then arborand get in the way of the wedge slots. It stays on top.
The thinner the shim the more loose and the widder the shim the tighter the barrel is on the arbor/gun. 
When I lay the shim on the arbor and insert them in the barrel I use a lil screw driver to keep the shim from backing out of the barrels hole. The shim shouldn't show when the barrels on the arbor.
The shim in there really helps the gun be stable. The barrel shouldn't move on the arbor at all when the shim is in the hole with the arbor.
Actually I think the barrel shouldn't move at all when it's put on the arbor (even without a shim but making a new arbor that fits the barrels hole properly is a hassel for me with out a lathe).....but there has to be some loose.....to get the barrel on and off easily enough. When I have a barrel shimmed on the arbor and it's tight ,like I want it to be, I use the loading lever and the plunger between the chamber holes to tap the barrel off the gun(Colt).
When the barrel is tight on the arbor the "gun shoots better" and usually less high. If the arbor is also bottomed in the barrels hole the guns always seem to shoot better and less high. Sometimes the gun may have shot high,as cap&ballers do, and then with the shim on the arbor and the arbor bottomed in the barrels hole .....shoot to the point of aim windage wise and elevation wise. That's always a nice scenario.
I have tightened barrels on arbors with shims or weld spots and file fit and.....have a gun/Colt that shoots dead on elevation wise with the small front sight it came from the box with it.
Years ago I bought a coupla Pietta Navy Colts and....both shot to point of aim right out of the box. I remember the first one I tested.....shot at a thin stick laying on the hill and broke it in half. Then broke the two halves in half. Then broke more of them in half till six shots were gone.   Both those danged Colts shot to the point of aim right out of the boxes.
They both had the arbors fit just snug enough in the barrels so the space left in the barrels hole was at minimum specs. ......proof in the puddin?
Kinda tells one that if they wanted to tune a Colt to be a good shooter the first thing to do would be to have a new arbor made that has very little space in the barrels hole once the arbor is in it. Make it so there is no movement of the barrel on the arbor even before the wedge is inserted.
There are some Belgian Centennials made by Centaure (1860 Army Colts)that have the arbor and the barrels hole tapered a little and when the barrel gets to where it should be on the arbor the taper is what stops it in the right place and....those have no movement of the barrel on the arbor and they usually shoot very very good. Wedges need be only thumb pressed in to hold too.
A Colt ,known to be less accurate than the Remington cap&ballers, can be as accurate as the Remington cap&ballers if they are put together properly with tighter tolerances.
If a person was in that fraternity that compete with the cap&ballers target shooting and had a Colt that kept up with or beat out the Remingtons you'd be a rare bird.

[Hoof Hearted]

Tuesday was "arbor" day in my shop!
I fixed the loose arbors on three 2nd Gen Colt 1851's (musta been something in the water)

HH