Question on point of aim

Started by brazosdave, January 18, 2013, 02:51:46 PM

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brazosdave

Just wondering, my Griswold and my L & R both shoot way high and to the right, at least 4-5 inches high at 25 yds. Is there any way to tweak the sights on them, or am I stuck just aiming at an imaginary low to the right aiming point?
"I'm your huckleberry, it's just my game"

Dick Dastardly

What caliber, what load?  Pistols can print to different places depending on loads, bullets etc.

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Steel Horse Bailey

Dick has brought up a good point.

Also, a lot of C&B revolvers DO shoot high.  (Not necessarily to the right, 'tho.)  Historically, the old Military revolvers especially the 1860 Colt) were "sighted in" (by the height of the front sight) at 50 to 75 yds.  Accurate repros (not ones developed for modern SASS & NCOWS shooting) shoot high.  There is an historical reason for this, but I have heard it only by word of mouth - I've not seen it in Army manuals or reprints from "back in the day."

Back then, Army tactics had the 2 combatant units lining up facing each other at about 200 yds apart.  (This is all very general distances.)  At the time, the soldier's performance standards for loading & firing his rifle was, starting with a loaded rifle, he could fire then reload & fire 3 more times in one minute.  (4 shots total)  At the same time, tactics specified that when the officer & bugle sounded "charge" the  lined of men would then head toward their opposites.  Not running, but at a quick step, or what we call nowadays (in slang) in the Military "Range Walk."  At a quick step, a loaded-down soldier could cover about 125 yds. in one minute.  That gave the opposite side 4 shots to shoot as many as possible, then the officer would command "Fix Bayonets."  It was then that the officer's pistol came into play, since only Officers had them, or Cavalry and some other Artillery troops - point being, NOT every soldier.  That Officer, and what other few who had 6-shot revolvers, then had six shots to fire at the enemy while his soldiers fixed bayonets and the other side arrived in front of them.

And, according to what I've heard, is the reason that most reproduction C&B revolvers (with accurately-sized front sights) shoot high for us.  We generally don't shoot beyond 25 feet, let alone 50-75 yards.

St. George, Trailrider, or any others very familiar with Military tactics of the era of the (un)Civil War, feel free to add to, or correct any of this information.

As to shooting to the right, we need to go back to Dick Dastardly's questions and add this one:  Are you a Southpaw, B-Dave?  If a Lefty jerks or otherwise doesn't do a good trigger release job, he'll shoot (most of the time) to the right.  Righties do the opposite.  But you prob'ly already know that.
"May Your Powder always be Dry and Black; Your Smoke always White; and Your Flames Always Light the Way to Eternal Shooting Fulfillment !"

brazosdave

oops, I meant high to the left. I was shootin 20 grains in the .36 Griswold, and 25 grains in the .36 L & R. I had totally forgot about the 75 yd thing! A friend suggested that if I really wanted to, I could carefully file down the notch in the hammer, or just get used to aimin low. And you're right, at the range I frequent, the back wall of the pistol bay is only 35 yds, so I was shootin about 25 yds. Most of the plastic pistol fellas shoot at the 3 yd marker. I heard it is a pita to file down the hammer notch, so I guess I will have to just practice aimin way low at these short distances. Thanks for the replies fellas. And nah, I'm a righty.
"I'm your huckleberry, it's just my game"

Buzzard II

Build your front sight up.  Either silver solder an extension on the existing sight.  Baring that, use a little bit of JB Weld SteelStik on the existing sight. Available at autoparts stores.  Are these sights permanently mounted, or are they in a dovetail?  If dovetailed, drift it out, weld, solder or braze an externsion on, then replace it.  Some sights are replaceable with different height sights.  Good luck.
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Steel Horse Bailey

I just us "Kentucky Windage" while shooting my C&B revolvers.  I personally (YMMV) like the look of the stock sights.  However, I have an 1871/2 Open Top (which got its' looks from the beautiful 1860 Army) that has a version of the blade sight which is on the classic 1873 Model P.  It looks great and shoots much closer to the ranges we shoot.
"May Your Powder always be Dry and Black; Your Smoke always White; and Your Flames Always Light the Way to Eternal Shooting Fulfillment !"

44caliberkid

To bring POA back to the right, I use a cutting wheel in a Dremel tool and remove material on the right side of the notch.  Widen the notch on the side you want the bullet to move.   To fix elevation, check to see if the front bead will unscrew.  If it will screw out, take it to the hardware store and find a little brass screw the same (or similar) sized thread.  You can put the screw in and file the sides of the head flat, then shorten it till you have Dead on elevation at 25 yards.  I have also made a new front sight from a dime.   I cut the top third off a dime leaving a little stud on the bottom that I screwed into the sight hole.  Added a smidge of solder to help hold it then test fired and filed to the proper height. 
  Go through the gunsmithing forum topics.  I posted the dime method there with pics, but lots of other guys have atarted threads with their solutions too.

brazosdave

"I'm your huckleberry, it's just my game"

Sir Charles deMouton-Black

Don't get too enthusiastic with the dremel!  Go slowly and target the revolver carefully along the way.  IF, That is IF, the metal is soft enough use a file. Resort to the Dremel where the metal has been hardened, like the hammer notch.
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Cactus Rope

brazosdave,

In agreement with what everyone says. Before I would start messing with sights you might consider this. Download these. Their from Lee.They may be on their site also.

Good luck.
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"Every oncet in a while, you have to step in it to learn the lesson."

rifle

You might want to carefully check the crowns on the muzzles. If not conentric with the centerline of the bore they can make the gun shoot off.
Lowering the rear hammer sight isn't difficult if yer careful with a diamond file. Pad the barrelin a vise, level it, put a rag in the area in front of the hammer when you pull it to full cock, file the top of the hammer horizontally, go outside and scare ywer neighbors by shooting to check the elevation.  :o If need be file some more. Test it,file,test it, file ect.ect. Shoot with the load you plan to use of course.
Usually with the Colts to not have a hammer too filed off or a front sight too high it's a double assault on the elevation by lowering the hammer some and raising the front sight some.
I've seen more than one original Colt Navy type with a small blade dovetailed sight on the barrels. Don't know if that could have come from the factory or not. Looks good.
Some guns that aren't too far off POA-POI the Kentucky windage isn't difficult to use and get used to. It's the adjustment of the "elevation and the windage" that gets to be too much to get used to. Just the elevation shooting high is easy to get used to even at different distances if......you take a walk about and shoot at "stuff" at different distances and practice that way. In short order a person can get used to a gun shootin high and "hit stuff". Ask Wild Bill Hickock!  ;)
I have guns that are set to shoot point of aim/point of impact and that is sweet. Others I just like to leave as they are and shoot like they did back in the day learning the gun and how it shoots and make the adjustments. Thing is......that works the best if you shoot one gun all the time. If you have a whole collection of cap&ballers it can be difficult to remember how they all shoot unless they have  a note in the box with them that reads like," shoots an inch low at three paces ,4 inches high at 25 and shoots POA at 50 paces".
I've taken Colt type guns that shot high and tuned them startin with the fit of the barrels to frames and arbors and wedge and all that and....end up with a gun that shoots to or real close to POA/POI.
It seems to make sense to me most of the time to....tighten the Colt up first then....adjust the sights. If the barrel is loose on the arbor it can get pointed off when the wedge is inserted. If the cylinder is loose enough on the arbor then....a small spot of weld on the top of the arbor fore and aft with the spots  filed so they keep the barrel tighter on the arbor the gun may shoot  a lot different Same thing can tighten up the cylinder on the arbor too. A simple piece of shim stock cut with sceissors and laid atop the arbor as the barrel is inserted will lift the barrel on the arbor and keep it tight. That is a good way to keep it tight or at least to test how it will shoot with the barrel tight and on centerline with the arbor. Loose barrels on arbors are the bane of the Colts. I don't believe the originals were as loose as some replicas we have today.
Some barrels are not sittin on the front of the frame right also. They need careful filing to set them straight and flush on the front of the frame. You can look down the centerline of yer frame and see down the barrel and...sometimes see how much the barrel is actually mounted crooked.That makes a Colt shoot off left to right or more high or low. That's why at times tightening the barrel on the arbor with a weld in two spots and filed right or a shim on top the arbor can get them shootin straighter. A Colt can end up with the two spots of weld on different sides too. Like the rear weld spot would be on the left and the front on the right to cant the barrel on the arbor a little to the right. That may need the barrels bottom lug filed to match but not always. Up to the operator.
It's obvious that when a barrel is loose on an arbor the wedge pulls the barrel backwards and down at the breech end and cants the muzzle up. That makes the gun shoot higher than it should otherwise. A cylindr gap thinner at the top and wider at the bottom shows that well. Or the barrel can be seen to cant up lookin at the gun from the side.
Actually the best way to set a Colt a-right is to have a gunsmith/machinist make an arbor that fits the barrels hole with a push on fit and the cylinder reamed in the center hole so it has less play too. Piettas with their tight arbors(well tighter than most other brands) generally shoot loer than the "loose barrels on the arbors guns".
I bought a Pietta Navy 36cal. twice that they shot to POA/POI right out of the box. They both had normal Navy sights and tighter fit "and bottomed" arbors in the barrels hole. Normal little brass front sights and the tight arbors.
Anywhoooo.....if yer timing can stand it or...you can stand yer trigger hittin full cock after the cylinder locks in the trigger can be lengthened to set the hammer lower at full cock. You can shorten the hand a little to set the timing right when you install a longer trigger. Longer at the top that engages the sear/hammer notch. Not at the bottom that sticks out of the frame.  :D
Anywhoooo.....having yer gun shoot to POA is the most comfortable way to shoot.
I should mention this scenario the time I messed with a gun shootin off on windage. Tuned it up then shot the gun and had the elevation right. The gun shot a good bit to the right. I got brave and confident in my "file" ability and......very carefully changed the plane of the barrels bottom lug that fit against the frame so it was still nice and flush but canted the barrel a small amount within the tolerance of the little bit of loose of the barrel on the arbor. When I tested it the danged thing shot to point of aim. It was shootin at least three inches off to the side at 20 paces before I changed the plane of the barrels bottom lug. It didnt take more than a few .001's in. less on one side blended into the other side left "as is". The hammers sight was still in the center of the hammer and all that too. :o
I put a dovetailed brass base german silver blade front sight on a fellers "51 Navy type gun and it looked pretty good that way. He liked it. The blade was kinda like a Peacemakers front sight but dovetailed into the barrel. It had a tallish front blade so the hammer was left as is but the gun was sighted to POA/POI.
I have a Colt 1861 Navy made in Italy. It's magnificently engraved very masterfully. Top of the line hand engraved with no makers marks on it. French grey hammer and frame with top of the line bluing that shows some "blue in the black"..The whole gun seems to be a presentation grade top of the line best-est the Italians can make. Everything fits like a good old sewing machine with top of the line tighter tolerances. Everything is stock configuration(front sight too) except the hammer has the nose a little shorter than usual. I guess since the gun is the top of the line they wanted it to shoot POA/POI.
What I'm gettin at is....all the tolerances on the gun are tighter than usuall and all it needed to get it to shoot right was a little taken down on the hammer nose. Kinda proves what I contend about these COLTS.
What's cool about how I found the gun was it was on a table at the Johnstown Swappers meet in Ohio. Full of dust from the dry ground and the heat and the wind. I was lookin to find a cool cap&baller which is hard to do at the gun shows since they don't show up on the tables in my area much. Masterfully engraved on the top of the barrel was the name "Replica Arms Marrietta Ohio Made in Italy". I was estatic seein the gun especially when I heard the price of $300. I got the price down to $250 and said I'd buy it if...the chambers lined upwell with the bore. I went and bought a flashlite and looked down the barrel and saw a perfect alignment. I got the gun fer $250 and the guy said," I just want to get rid of that thing".
The engraving is beautiful and...even the cylinder scene is hand engraved. Beautiful scrolls like Nimschki(spell) used to do fer Colt back in the day.
Anywhoooo....the tolerances were tight and it was easy to get to shoot right to POA/POI out of the factory that way. That is why I figure the originals that were probably tighter tolerances than today shot closer to the POA. I never believed the early cap&ballers were meant to be sighted fer 75-100 yrd shooting. I figure the sights were a carry over from the single shot pistols that had little sights. Probably like that so they stayed put better and didn't get knocked off easy.
I figure Colt made the front sights of the cap&ballers low so they didn't get knocked loose easy and not to sight them fer long range shooting. They were made to shoot really close range like almost point blank range . I read somewhere once from some document from the Army Ordanance Dept. that the cap&ballers were expected to be used at from 7-28 feet. Last dish close range hand to hand type fightin.
That would mean ifin you can hit stuff right in front of you 7-28 feet yer doin what the guns were meant to do.
People sayin the guns were sighted in fer 75-100 yards isn't logical especially when you consider the pocket pistols with short sights.
What I've read is...the first Colt the Army Ordanance Dept. asked or demanded to shoot longer range was the heavy bullet 45 Colt 1873 SAA. The Army wanted a gun that could disable a horse from 100 yards distance. That was demanded of the new design gun they wanted back in the 1873 time range. Colt made the gun,the venerable 1873 SAA, to be what the Army wanted and got the govt. contract to build them. Funny it had a rather tall front sight too. :o
Anywhoooo...ifin yer cap&baller shoots high it's doin it because of the high rear sight and the little front sights that were hardly meant to be used at all. If the gun was actually meant to be aimed and not just pointed ole Sam would have designed the sights a little different ....maybe like the rear sights of the 1872 Open Top.
Anywhoooo...I'm just tryin to say," don't fell bad ifin yer cap&baller shoots high at 25 yards".That's a lot more feet distance than the guns were meant to shoot to. The guns,God Ferbid, shoot POA/POI at a rather short range if you ever shot it that short a distance. ;D
They shoot LOW at a short enough distance. Shoot right on at a real short distance then go to shootin high further out. They seem to shoot right to POA at around 5-7 yards. When people say the guns have little front sights because they were meant to be used at long range in battle I thunk I'd a liked an enemy that shot little lead balls that far since it would sting a lot but I'd a probably be able to dig the ball out myself later after I killed the SOB with my musket. ;D
Anywhoooo....the cap&ballers being sighted to shoot long range is an illogical myth or wife's tale carried from word of mouth from one person to the other till people without thunkin' believe such ludicrous and  illogical  mis-information.
Rest assured that although yer cap&baller shoots high at 25 paces it will shoot "right to the point of aim" at the distance it was meant to be used at. Point blank range of 7 to 28 feet. :o

brazosdave

Good post rifle! Usually, I do shoot shorter distances and as long as I can hit a man size target abouts the chest area, I'm happy, but I got talked into a postal match, and there the Texas Muzzleloading Rifle Association match in Brady in March that I'm going to, and both have targets at 25 yds, so I just didn't want to look like a total goober. I do have a small little collection going, sos I was tryin to figure out which one to use. I finally kinda thunk to myself that I would just pick one, get it to group, and then measure how many inches it was high, and correct by Kentucky windage method. Then, I thoughts to myself" I wonder, my Wells Fargo 49 pocket .32 packs a tiny little charge, and I never tried to shoot it at a 25 yd target, so I'm gonna bring that one to range day next Friday and see what that thing does." I'm not sure I know of anyone who's ever tried to shoot at a target with one of those things at 25 yds, so I'm askin around, but if not, I reckon I'll figure it out on Friday, lol! Got lots of input from lots of folks on getting better poa out of my cap and balls, time is my problem, I stretch it thin as it is and barely can fit time to even make a new holster, and I'm gonna start making black powder and castin balls, sos that's even more time. But any knowledge is good knowledge, that's why I'm glad there are so many people here that I can ask these questions to! ;D
"I'm your huckleberry, it's just my game"

Fox Creek Kid

Quote from: rifle on January 20, 2013, 11:05:11 AM...What I've read is...the first Colt the Army Ordanance Dept. asked or demanded to shoot longer range was the heavy bullet 45 Colt 1873 SAA. The Army wanted a gun that could disable a horse from 100 yards distance....


One Colt came before for longer range.  ;)


http://percussionrevolvers.com/index.php?topic=674.0

rifle

Yer a willy ole rascal ain't ya Fox Creek?  ::)         ;D
Cool Dragoon in the pics. Some Hombre back in the day, when rifles were single shot , was ahead of the curve. One of yer ancesters from back at the Alamo? The one that got away?
I liked the story(history fer real) of the band of  wanderers out west that all were shootin at a grizzly with Navy Colts havin no success and then an Hombre rode over to the griz and popped off two shots with a Dragoon and the griz was in the pot fer supper.
Dragoons could shoot a bit further than all but the Walker.
Now, one a them guns would spit a sting to a horse couldn't it?
I swear....I'm on a roll musing the hell outta that reply and then THE FOX CREEK KID comes along and.....well..... :-[
I shoulda said,"Dragoons and Walkers don't count". ha ha ha ha
I could add to this and speculate that the Stocked Dragoon revolver with the "sights and all" was not really a long range type gun but an attempt to have a carbine that shot more than once like the single shot rifles and the 58cal. 1855 single shot stocked Dragoon the stocked revolver must have preceeded. Then attached stocks of the 1855 Dragoon and the Dragoon revolver were probably more for an attempt at better accuracy control than long range. You know....an attempt to have a multi-shot gun that could sting out to a hundred paces or so. The Walker and the Dragoons revolvers were meant to be at least 100 yards guns in an attempt to out do the single shot rifles of the day? I guess if a hundred paces was concidered a long range then the Dragoons and Walkers were long range revolvers and with the stocks fer control would be considered carbines. Interesting......to say the least.

harleydavis

Quote from: Steel Horse Bailey on January 18, 2013, 07:11:05 PMThat gave the opposite side 4 shots to shoot as many as possible, then the officer would command "Fix Bayonets."  It was then that the officer's pistol came into play, since only Officers had them, or Cavalry and some other Artillery troops - point being, NOT every soldier.  That Officer, and what other few who had 6-shot revolvers, then had six shots to fire at the enemy while his soldiers fixed bayonets and the other side arrived in front of them.
Not entirely accurate. The bayonet charge was meant to scare the bejesus out of the enemy and so, bayonets would be fixed prior to the advance. Now then, when the attacking force gets that close to the enemy, the officers are (by regulation) behind the ranks & file closers (Sergeants). Not practical for an officer to start blazing away at the enemy. In truth, the use of revolvers in the field by line infantry officers is highly overstated by Hollywood. They were not issued, but were private purchased as was the ammunition. Plus, an 1860 Army on your waistbelt on a 20+ mile a day march is not much fun. Line officers did not have horses and marched right along side the foot soldier. Most officers, if they carried a revolver, probably had a smaller framed peice intended for in close personal defense. I cannot speak to the statement of the sight made for 50-75 yd shots, that may be factual, but not for the infantry officer as a general rule. Same for Artillery soldiers, the typical gunner did not carry a revolver. Cavalry troopers did and perhaps the longer distance sighting is true there but then again, the trooper had his carbine for that purpose. Just my 2 cents worth.
I remain, respectfully,
Harley Davis
"I do not believe in ghosts so I do not burn a candle waiting for them. As to the killing of a bad man, when it comes to a fight, it is the other man or me. And when the deed is done, why bother the mind? Afterall, the killing of a bad man should not bother anymore than the killing of a rat, a vicious cat or an ugly dog" James Butler Hickok when asked if he ever thought about the men he had killed.

cpt dan blodgett

In addition to the revolver Captains and Lieutenants in the Infantry carried an 1850 Foot Officers Sword more as a badge of rank than a swashbucklers weapon.
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harleydavis

Not to hijack the original thread, but the infantry officers' sword not only was a rank badge, it was utilized to indicated immediate command. When drawn and carried in the various positions, the officer was then known to be the immediate commander of whatever body of troops he is issuing orders to. He generally did not charge into the meley swinging his "fearful" sword. Not to say it did not occur, but Hollywood sure makes it look glorious.
I remain, respectfully,
Harley Davis
"I do not believe in ghosts so I do not burn a candle waiting for them. As to the killing of a bad man, when it comes to a fight, it is the other man or me. And when the deed is done, why bother the mind? Afterall, the killing of a bad man should not bother anymore than the killing of a rat, a vicious cat or an ugly dog" James Butler Hickok when asked if he ever thought about the men he had killed.

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