'76 Winchester a weak action?

[wyldwylliam]

I'm probably not the only guy to have heard all the talking heads who say the Henry, 66, 73 and 76 Winchester actions are so weak that it's hardly better than a BB gun, and that might be pushing it.

However. Just wanted to pass along something I've just read in the 1879 Winchester catalogue, reprinted from a "Forest and Stream" article of Nov. 1, 1877. I may be the only feller who hadn't yet run across it, but just in case....

Winchester had gotten some letters wondering how strong the action was on the '76 so O.F. and the boys decided to do a test.

In the first place, they removed the left link and fired the rifle with 20 rnds of factory ammunition, with no problems encountered.

From here they put the link back in and kept upping powder charge and weight of bullets to see what the old girl could handle.

In the fifth trial, they fired a load of 203 grains of Government powder and five bullets with a combined weight of 1,750 grains. The rifle held together just fine and functioned with no problems.

Sixth, 203 grns under six bullets, 2,100 grains. Slightly bent the breech pin and the "arm working stiff."

To put the rifle out of commission it took the same 203 grns under a combine bullet weight of 2,880 grns. That failure was pretty impressive.

On balance, especially given the state of metallurgy of the day, for the rifle to function happily with 203 grns of powder and five bullets combined to weigh 1,750 grains, is plenty strong enough to give me more than enough confidence in the strength of the Centennial Rifle and all its little brothers.

Next time some citizen starts to heap scorn on these old timers, lay that fifth test on them.

BTW, the rifle was an "off the rack" one and was a Notarized test.

[Arizona Trooper]

That test is widely mentioned, but...... The problem with the toggle link action is that heavy loads cause the links to loosen up rather quickly, at which point the action develops a lot of headspace, and is much more likely to have problems. A good tight Winny is plenty strong, so is a good tight Trapdoor. However, either one when fed a steady diet of stout loads can loosen up rather too soon. In spite of Winchester's advertisements, there is a reason why '76s were never chambered in 45-70, although Whitney Burgess, Marlin 1881s and Winny 1886s were all popular in that chambering. Stick with the BP equivalent loads so you can hand your '76 down to your kids.

[w44wcf]

author=Arizona Trooper link=topic=45816.msg567756#msg567756 .............. In spite of Winchester's advertisements, there is a reason why '76s were never chambered in 45-70,

Yes, the action is not long enough......

W44wcf

[Forty Rod]

Yeah, I'd say a .50-95 Express calls for a weak action.   

Biggest problem is to get a toggle link action that would handle the big loads the gun was chambered for called for the dang thing had to be as big an a howitzer.  Bigger cartridges would have called for something even more unwieldy than the '76.  It had exceeded the limits of practicality and the Browning designed '86 that replaced it was  the best solution.

[Grapeshot]

I don't know how many of you fellers have read this, but this excerpt from Bill Hockett's 2002 article on the Centennial Winchester explains the strength testing that Winchester performed on the new model. it is a bit of am eye opener.

"The Model 1876 is the only repeating rifle that had successful, documented use in the northern plains buffalo slaughter. Earlier repeating rifles such as the Henry, Spencer, and Winchester Models of 1866 and 1873 may have seen limited use, but only the Model 1876 was considered by hunters as powerful enough to do the job against the big woolies. The strength of the Model 1876 rifle and the .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge was tested by Winchester in the late 1870s. The factory conducted tests on the strength and reliability of the action to answer concerns by customers. These tests will astound collectors and shooters who have stated the Model 1876's toggle link action is "weak." In response to a letter sent to the company by Charles Hallock, Esquire, of Forest & Stream magazine, Oliver Winchester responded by telling about the tests the factory accomplished on the 1876 rifle. He indicated that engineers first started the tests by removing one of the toggle links and fired 20 rounds (this was with .45-75 W.C.F. cartridge with 350 grain bullet) with no effect. They restored the missing link then went through 6 more trials starting with a charge of 105 grains of black powder, behind a 700 grain bullet! The comment "worked well" is noted. They then increased the charge of powder to 165 grains behind 3 bullets (1,150 grains) and that "worked well." From there, they increased the powder charge to 203 grains and added more bullets until they reached 1,750 grains of lead (five 350 grain bullets). This also "worked well." Finally, they added one more bullet, bringing the total weight to 2,100 grains, and things began to happen. The comment was, "Breech pin slightly bent. Arm working stiff." The seventh and final test was again 203 grains of powder but this time six Martini bullets weighing 480 grains each (2,880 grains) were used. "The charge bent the breech pin, blew out the side plates, split the frame and otherwise disabled the arm," was the comment. Oliver Winchester noted that in this seventh trial, the shell had burst into fragments and the escape of gas at the breech did the damage."

[Abilene]

I have several times over the years read this report of the strength tests performed on the '76.  I am curious about the mechanics of the testing.  How do they get that much powder and bullet weight into the action to do the tests?  Did they place a primed case into the action and then dump powder and ram lead down the barrel like a muzzle loader?

[Grizzly Adams]

I have several times over the years read this report of the strength tests performed on the '76.  I am curious about the mechanics of the testing.  How do they get that much powder and bullet weight into the action to do the tests?  Did they place a primed case into the action and then dump powder and ram lead down the barrel like a muzzle loader?

Yep!  That's just how they did it.   Spooky, huh?