*** Photos Added *** Burnside Spencer and Burnside Breech Loader Questions

[jimbo m]

I was hopeful that someone could answer a few questions about my 1865 Burnside Spencer and 1864 breech loader. I am hopeful that Two Flints will add my photos. First the Spencer has 6 grooves in the barrel, everything I have read says that this gun should have 3 grooves ? There is a screw where the stabler cutoff should be, was this gun supposed to have this or is this a model before that feature was introduced. Serial #17479. This gun has a JLC inspectors mark on the barrel and several other marks B, M etc. The barrel measures 20" to the breech and measures .512 in the bore with a caliper. The gun has numerous places where tacks were in place on the fore end as well as the stock, with the stock having an X pattern. In a return e mail Two Flints gave me the standard info on the Burnside Spencer, any other info would be a great help !












The Burnside breech loader is something that I have not researched as much, I believe this is a 5th model patent 1864 and serial # 8105. These guns have been handed down and I am trying to get as much info as I can for my kids. Thank you in advance for any help, I have been through a lot of posts on this forum and it looks like the same questions get asked over and over so thank you for your patience.















Respectfully, jimbo m

[Herbert]

I have never seen a Burnside Spencer with 6 grooves,the JLC barrel mark is corect for a Burnside Spencer,allso the Spencer made 1865 barrel were marked M 1865 on top of the barrel (could it have been relined as .512 groove diameter is much smaller than usual,has it been converted to centerfire)The trigger plate has been made for the Stabler cutt off butt the lower breach block is one made before this carbine (Stabler cutt offs were fitted after serial number 16012 and the lower blocks cutt for the cutt off)The tack holes would have been done after it was out of service, as any of the other modifications would have been(removal of Stabler cutt of ,replacment of lower breach block and most likly a relined 6 groove barrel and tacks added and removed)These carbines were used well into to the earl 20th centuary so these alterations are just a part of its history,you can still get original Stabler cutt lower blocks and Stabler cutt offs if you wish to return it to original shape,your block could be used as a trade

[Two Flints]

This was the content of a Personal Message I received from Jimbo m to continue with more information for his original post:

Herbert, Two Flints
Thanks for the info, I am not sure how to continue on my first post so I will try this way. The Burnside Spencer in my photos is not converted to a centerfire. However, I took the fore end off and the 6 groove barrel has a different serial # than the frame. The barrel # is 10426 and the inspection marks are CCP, does this make any sense ? The barrel has not been relined, I can't see any silver solder lines or anything. The barrel bore is in excellent condition. Do you think this may have been a factory job ?
Thank you for your time, I haven't touched these guns in 10 years now I am obsessed with these things and the history behind them. Probably be a good chance they will never give up their secrets.
jimbo m

[badlands]

All kinds of parts could be had from Bannerman for quite some time back in the day, i've seen a burnside that was rebarreled like this one, who knows?   Ammo and parts were avalible, possible.

[jimbo m]

Two Flints, Herbert, Badlands,
The barrel on this gun is a total mystery, I thank you all for the help. I think Badlands said it best "who knows."
Jimbo M

[Jobe Holiday]

jimbo m -

I'll address your "other" carbine, the Burnside! It is a very nice example, and as you surmised, it is what is known as the 5th Model. It is a nice low serial number, but if one searches the Springfield Research Service records they will be of no avail even though there are some Burnside Carbine numbers listed. The reason is beause the company reset the serial numbers to zero several times throughout the manufacture of the Burnside Carbine.

You still have a nice clean example of a true Civil War carbine!

Jobe

[jimbo m]

Jobe or any other members,
Serial #s are the same on this gun and the bore is excellent. How were the barrels attached on these guns, were they press fit ? Do the serial numbers start at one on each of the models ? First model, second model etc ? I don't think I will ever shoot these guns but if I do, I will consult with this forum and its wealth of information.
Thank you,
Jimbo m

[Arizona Trooper]

Burnside serial numbers are a bit of a mystery. It appears that they were restarted at 1 when the Bristol Firearms Company was dissolved and the Burnside Rifle Co. took over. This was during the 2nd to 3rd model transition. In addition, there are some tool room specials that have their own numbers, such as a 4th model made on a third model frame and numbered 4. Finally, when Burnside restarted single shot carbine production while getting set up for Spencer production, they restarted serial numbers at 1 and marked them "Model of 1864" on the frame. (I almost bought #16 and have been kicking myself ever since).

I was out shooting #6338 today. Your number appears to be close to that, but this one is a 4th model without the breechblock guide screw and with a barrel date of 1862.   

There is a lot of research still to be done on Burnsides.

They are fun to shoot, but the cases cost a lot these days! 

[Trailrider]

Well, at least we know from the photo that the Burside carbine is a "Fifth Model" or Fourth Model, Second Type", depending on who calls it what. The key is the guide screw in the side of the receiver, which is indicative of the last model aka Fifth, etc.  Aside from the damage to the forearm, it looks like it is in great shape. These are a ball to shoot, and if I had to use a non-repeater in the CW, I would have wanted a Burnside, as the cartridge gave the best gas seal properties, whether you use the brass reproductions or original coil type. A little-known feature that I have found is that when the breech is opened after firing, the latch will knock spent tophat mucket caps off the cone (nipple), so you don't have to fool with picking it off manually!

As has been stated, Spencers can be a real puzzle in themselves.

[Jobe Holiday]

Trailrider, you mention the original cases as being "coil type". I have a number of original Burnside cartridges, along with quite a few examples od fired cases recovered from various battlefield sites, and none of them are made from coiled brass. They are all deep drawn brass cases. As I remember it the coiled cases were very early and are quite rare today.

J.

[Trailrider]

Trailrider, you mention the original cases as being "coil type". I have a number of original Burnside cartridges, along with quite a few examples od fired cases recovered from various battlefield sites, and none of them are made from coiled brass. They are all deep drawn brass cases. As I remember it the coiled cases were very early and are quite rare today.

J.

Very true, Pard! I'm sure that by the time the 5th Model came out, the cartridges were all deep drawn brass. Given the fragility of coiled cases, it is little wonder that few survive in an unfired condition, and I doubt fired cases would be found readily, if at all. Fun to shoot the Burnsides! I haven't fired one in quite a few years, and can't remember how many rounds I shot at one time. What has been your experience as to how many rounds a Burnside can go without starting to gum up? Took more than I can recall, for sure!

[jimbo m]

Thanks for the replies, More questions,
Are these barrels threaded on , press fit ? Does anyone have a website or other source to view pictures of the manufacturing and machining of these guns. Being a machinist for 30 years I find it amazing what they were able to do 150 years ago. I can"t seem to find much in the way of rifling barrels or the process of producing firearms in this time period.
Thanks,
Jimbo m

[Two Flints]

Jimbo m,

Try doing a Google search with these words - you tube rifling barrels and see the many results you will get like this one:  

or this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMSpbZQqqGY&feature=related

Two Flints