Black Powder in Colt Lightning Rifle

[Hell-Er High Water]

Does anyone have any experience with black powder loads in a reproduction Colt Lightning Rifle?  I have one in transit to me, in 45 Colt caliber, that has been custom built by Eldon Penner, the Colt Lightning "Guru" in Gardnerville, NV.  I haven't seen reports on using black powder in these, probably because no one could keep one operational long enough to get that far in load development.  I have witnessed his rifles in action that had been working for several years with smokless loads with no problems and he guarantees his work.  What I don't know is if this action will digest the black powder loads without excessive fouling build up and binding. 

Eldon rebuilt my Large Frame Lightning to 45-85-285 caliber (45-70 by another name) and it works flawlessly with smokeless.  I have never used this rifle with black powder loads so I don't know how it would handle them.

Any input would be appreciated.  Thanks.

HHW

[Lars]

If you should not want to dive into the kinds of things listed below, you might try a box or two of 45 Colt BP loads from Republic Metallic Cartridge, Co. (www.republicmetallic.com). Friends of mine that have used their 45 Colt BP loads in their rifles have reported very little blowback of BP crud into the receiver. They also got POA accuracy for an all-day, 6-stage match. Rifling was clearly visible all the way to the muzzle and there was lube on the muzzle.  These are premium loads that perform very nearly like the high quality stuff from the late 1800s. Their ammo is about 22,00 dollars per 50, which is about 14,00 dollars when you subtract cost of brass. It will cost 6,00-10,00 per 50 to reload.

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I sure would not pick 45 Colt to load BP in for use in rifle. The thick walls of 45 Colt cases are difficult to obturate fully at BP pressures, although there are factors that can mitigate that but, it is really hard to acheive the same freedom from blowback as the 44-40 provides.

First factor would be nice tight chambers -- most rifles in 45 Colt don't have them.

Second is use of a 250 grain bullet, probably sized 0,454 or 0,455, preferably pure lead. The 0,455 pure lead, 255 grain bullets Remington sells for reloading are excellent for use with 777 FFg.

Third factor is to use a full case of relatively fast burning BP that does not create much crud -- something like Swiss FFg, maybe even FFFg, 777 FFG, etc.

Forth factor is to use a good two-lube-groove bullet with premium lube, say SPG or Javalina Alox -- not really needed with 777 FFG but is with Swiss. Avoid excessive lube, it just makes a mess unless the case seals fully.

Fifth, crimp tightly.

Finally, use CCI350 (mag primers).

Perhaps anneal the upper 1/2 of the cases now and then.

SOMETIMES, I have been able to greatly reduce blowback of BP fouling by never resizing the cases. This is not a universal solution, especially in a rifle. For one thing, they may not feed well. For the second, they require oversize, soft lead bullets and sometimes soft fiber wads.

You may get by with less than all of the above six factors..

Lars

[Paladin UK]

Fer, Hell-Er High Water ................

I really gotta go with Lars on this one, I shoot the Holy black in EVERY smokepole            Except................fer my yellowboy which is in .45LC, tried all-sorts ta make it shoot reliably and without  `cruddin up` (Even done the ol `annealin`trick) but it dont cut it all out, I came ta the conclusion that it jest aint worth the hassle `n decided ta stick ta the EVIL SMOKEELESS stuff fer jest that one smokepole

Paladin (What lurvs tha Holy Black ) UK

[Cuts Crooked]

The .45 should perform pretty much the same in lever gunz or trombone gunz...depending on several factors such as chamber dimensions.

Lots of pards shoot .45 in their long guns, it's jist a matter of what yer willin' to put up with, and what yer willing to do to make it work.

Somewhere at home I've got an artical I wrote fer the Chronical on the issue .45s in long guns, wif BP. I'll dig it out and pin it here tomorrow,

[Dick Dastardly]

After reading the above posts, I'm wonderin' how ol Silas McFee and me have such good luck with our 44 Magnums and Holy Black?

Seems in everything from high 90s to freeze yer spit before it hits the ground cold, we have good luck.  Function and accuracy stay first stage good till the match is over.  Must be them thin 44 Magnum cases??  Our 92s don't give no nevermind whatsumever.  They jest keep on runnin' like pink bunnys.

I'm thinkn' maybe not.  I'm thinkn' that it's a Big Lube(tm) bullet lubed with standard Pearl Lube that keeps 'em runnin'.  Ain't no fancy powder, smokeyless fad powder or nuthin' else at work.  Jest plain good boolits and good lube.

I'm thinkn' this recipe should work jest fine in the mighty 45 too.

DD-DLoS

[Will Ketchum]

Well Dick, I used the big lubed bullet in my 66 in 44 Russian and the action got pretty stiff after about 5 stages.  I had to really douse it with Ballistol to get it to run.

I have been thinking of milling some lube grooves in the carrier to help alleviate the problem.

Will Ketchum

[Silver Creek Slim]

Well Dick, I used the big lubed bullet in my 66 in 44 Russian and the action got pretty stiff after about 5 stages.  I had to really douse it with Ballistol to get it to run.

I have been thinking of milling some lube grooves in the carrier to help alleviate the problem.

Will Ketchum

It was a real mess. 

Slim

[Paper Chaser]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm, I've got to find out what's wrong with my real BP loads.  I can shoot a entire match, usually 50 rounds, with my 66 Yellowboy ( 45 Colt ) and it just keeps on ticking.  Does get a little 'gunky' but I've never had a problem otherwise.

[Will Ketchum]

Paper Chaser, what bullet are you using and what brand of powder?  Case?

Will Ketchum

[Cuts Crooked]

Howdy Will,

Have you tried any of the tricks in this thread: http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,6290.0.html

[Will Ketchum]

Cuts, when I shot the 66 last year it was the first time I had really shot it and my brass was new.  I plan to try to try just neck sizing and see if that helps.

Heck it doesn't really matter to me.  I only shoot the discusting BP at NCOWS matches and I don't really care where I finish.

Will Ketchum

[Lars]

I have to wonder sometimes about factors not immediately considered. Things like looseness of fit of parts in the guts of a rifle, in the cylinder pins of revolvers, to name perhaps the major ones.

I have one Ruger in 45 Colt that will keep shooting nicely even with the cruddest BP loads I have seen. I have another in 44-40 that requires some care to keep it running for 6 stages. The sole difference seems to be the clearance between the cylinder pin and its hole in the cylinder. That is a very generous clearance in the 45 Colt and a lot less in the 44-40, even with stock Ruger pins in both. In both cases I start with either dry cylinder pin or a light coating of RemOil.

When I look down in the innards of toggle-link rifles I keep wondering just how much variations in clearance, say between the lifter and the wall, there is and how much this might affect performance with cruddy BPs in 45 Colt chambered rifles. I would expect the short 44 Russian cartridge to be even worse than the 45 Colt, unless heavily loaded with 777 FFg or Swiss, maybe even more than usual compression and mag primers and 240 grain bullets and new cases.

The Winchester 92 design would appear a lot more forgiving with 45 Colt and cruddy BPs. Have no personal information about Marlin 94s or the Tarus Lightenings.

Lars

[Will Ketchum]

I always read how the 44wcf and the 38wcf are more suited for black powder because they are more of a bottle necked case.   Let's not forget that the original 44 Henry Flat rim fire which was used in both the Henry and the 66 was a straight walled case and I don't recall them having problems with blowback.  I recall a civilian at the wagon box fight used a Henry to shoot over 300 hostiles.  (I always figured he must of had a whole bunch of ammo with him )

The 44 Russian case is very close to the original Henry case.  Now it might have been the Henry cases were softer or the powder used in those days was of higher quality and didn't have as much fouling.

I would like to solve the problem.  Perhaps I should try the Swiss I have for BPCR long range.  I am torn between wanting to experience what our forefathers did by shooting real black powder and wanting my guns to continue to function through out a entire match.

Will Ketchum

[Daguerreo Dick]

Last fall I was treated to the finest collection of Old West guns I've had the privilege of seeing.  The entire collection is in privage ownership and reflects a lifetime of accumulation.  There is a complete collection of Winchester 66s, 73s, and 92s.  By complete I mean one each of each common caliber chambering made by Winchester in each of the designs.  All were in very good to excellent condition.  In one rifle rack I spotted a Henry.

The owner claimed it had come from an abandoned miners shack far up in the Montana mountains.  He had known of the rifle for many years and finally picked it up and took it home when he was on an Elk hunting trip in the area.  The rifle had sat in a sheltered area of the cabin and had been protected even though most of the cabin had rotted and fallen down thru the years.

That Henry rifle was loaded.  It was 44 rimfire cal.  The gun had never been converted to centerfire.  Although the brass is tarnished, the gun is in great condition.  The bore is clean, unpitted and shiny bright.  I saw some of the cartridges the gun had been loaded with.  The hulls looked like they were made of copper.  If this was true, then it helps explain how they sealed the chamber.  Since there is no way of knowing how much the rifle had been shot before comming to rest in the corner of the deserted shack, there is no way of knowing what, if anything, had been done to keep the gun in the fine condition it was found in.  Also unknown after these many years is who the original owner may have been, or why the gun was left in the corner of that shack.  Mine accident, hostile attack, snakebite, bad luck, good luck, for some reason the gun was forgotten.

I don't know if this sheds any light on the chamber sealing question mentioned above, but it seems that softer brass may have been at least a partial answer.

DD-DLoS

[Lars]

Pete,

It would seem that some information could go a ways toward solving your problem, information that you may or may not already have.

1a) To what dimensions do the fired cases expand when you do not have blowback, say from a nitro load that is heavy enough to provide full obturation?
1b) Are the fired cases precisely round? Sometimes chambers are not adequately round and fired cases must be precisely oriented before they can be placed back into the chambers.

2) To what dimensions are the cases resized? Big differences between 1a) and 2) indicate an oversized chamber to some degree. Don't know what the difference should be but, smaller is better.

3a) Can bullets (perhaps as cast instead of sized) be securely crimped into the fired cases?
3b) Can you apply a bit of neck sizing to get secure crimps?

4) If "yes" to 3a or 3b), will these rounds with un-resized or only neck-sized cases feed through the mag (I would expect them to) and also feed easily into the chamber?

5) If "yes" to 4), load some rounds with enough Swiss or a FFFG granulation BP to give at least about 10% compression. Even try for as much powder compression as is easy. It is often reported that modern 45 Colt brass needs 8.000 psi/cup to obturate fully (even 777 FFG loads for 44 Special only give about 7.500 cup for 800-900 fps from Hodgdon pressure barrels http://www.hodgdon.com/data/muzzleloading/granular/t7cartridge.php ). The 44 Russian brass, especially if Starline, will require a similar pressure. Even mag primers might help. See how well these loads work for repeated firings.

In addition, I think I recall that Doc Schapiro had some alterations made to the carrier of a toggle-link 45 Colt rifle and that these alterations reduced the affect that powder fouling from blowback had on the continued function of the rifle.

As regards function, not group size, it makes no difference the amount or kind of lube, as it can with revolvers. Bullets do need to be big enough to seal the bore tightly, so, as-cast bullets might be an important part of the fix. Heavier bullets, especially if they can be seated out enough to not greatly reduce the space for powder, would be my choice.

Best Wishes for finding a fix.
Lars