Triple 7 in a brass frame

[brazosdave]

Hey guys, I learned in another forum from some fellas that the loads of Trip 7 I was shooting was too hot for my steel 1860 and the brass 51. They let me know what would be a safe load by equating the amount of Trip 7 to b.p., which I was very grateful for.
However, another feller said that you should never use Trip 7 in a brasser regardless of the load. If it's the same exact explosive power, I can't see what the difference would be. I think the other guys were correct in that I had to bring my powder loads down to about 17 gr for the brass, and around 27 for the steel.  Does anybody else know why Trip 7 would be verboten in a brasser? Thanks fellas!

[Pettifogger]

It's only because it has more power.  777 is approximately 15% hotter than real BP.  I'll give you an example.  I shoot the same 27 grain load you do out of my Ruger Old Armies.  REMEMBER WE ARE TALKING 27 GRAINS VOLUME EQUIVALENT TO REAL BP not an actual 27 grains of weight of 777.  Since 777 weighs less than BP that would be an overcharge.  At any rate, using my powder flask which throws 27 grains of real BP, if I fill it with APP and dump the charges the muzzle velocity out of the 5 1/2" barrel ROA is in the low 600 fps range.  Fill the flask with 777 and use the same volume and the muzzle velocity is over 1000 fps!  To get an equivalent load with 777 you want to reduce the charge by 15%.  In other words, 777 does not have the "same exact explosive power."

[brazosdave]

thanks! Yeah I had meant equivalent in terms of lesser amount than b.p.  I have a .44 Pietta 1860 with a steel frame and a .44 cal Pietta(confederate navy sheriff) in brass. Not too great in math, but what would be the appropriate charges of Trip 7 to safely use for these guns?

[Lefty Dude]

In my Brass Pietta 51 Navy's I use APP or Goex 3F, and 18 grains. I would never use T7 in my brasser's. I have never used T7. I prefer the low pressure of APP in my 51 Cap-Guns. The 1860 Pietta steel is a different story.

[brazosdave]

haven't heard of APP. I'll google it and check it out

[Abilene]

Howdy Brazosdave,
I'm thinking 15gr Volume of 2F 777 will probably be okay in your brass frame.  If it is 15% hotter than BP, that would make it the equivalent of around 17gr of BP.  And APP stands for American Pioneer Powder.  I too would say it is a little less powerful than BP.

[Colt Fanning]

I shoot 15 grain (Vol) in my 1851 pietta brass frame.  Note Abilene said 2f not 3f.  I shot 3f for a while and decided it was too much
bang.

Regards

Colt

[hellgate]

I load about 22grs by volume of 3F 777 in my 357 mag. The 15gr vol load is what I would put into a 38SPL case. Its power is about mid way between a full powder smokeless load and a BP load. I suspect it has a sharper pressure peak but if you highly compress it, it may have an even higher one. I found that to be true with  APP (hard compression increased pressure). You are not supposed to load 3F 777 into cartridges but a 357 is a pretty high intensity load so I am not worried about it.

[rifle]

I've read fromwhat seems a reliable source that 777 is actually smokeless powder. At any rate I can tell the peak pressure curve with 777 happens quicker.
I loaded 27 grains FFg 777 in two 36 cal. cap&ballers. One had a steel frame and the other a brass frame with a steel back plate soldered on to protect the recoil shields "ring" that the cylinder bangs back into and is there to keep the caps on the nipples from recoiling back into the frame and chain firing. Both guns shot very accuately and in the end were damaged with the indentations of the cylinder peened into the "ring" on the recoil shield. One shooting session and both guns were damaged.
The thin steel plate I'd made and soldered on the brass framer around the frames "ring" to protect it saw no damage from about 15 years of normal 36 cal loads of 22 grains FFFg Goex black powder. Not reduced loads but regular standard 36 cal loads. Same with the steel frame,as is with no thin plate to protect the recoil shileds ring. That thin steel plate around the brass framers "ring" on the recoil shield makes a brass framer last a real long time. Long time with o wide cylinder gap or loose arbor. Tight as it was out of the box for years and years. Until the 777 powder. 
Well I fixed the brass framer with the thin steel plate,(which by the way the nipples need shortened if you use a steel plate the same height as the "ring".) and luckily the steel Navy wasn't harmed beyond still good to go. It just has two cylinder gaps now. One widder when locked in battery and one less wide when between the chambers. It is a Uberti I've had since the mid eighties and never had any damage until the 777 powder.
Well....I learned that 26 gr. FFg 777  will harm my guns. I was experimenting with the 777 powder. I already had learned to keep the FFFg 777 out of my cap&ballers. I learned not to compress that 777 also. Compressed the 777 pressures do rise a good bit.
Now......I never put more than 15gr. FFg 777 in my 36's brass or steel. If I had a brasser without the steel backing plate to protect the recoil shield.....I'd never use 777 in it. The steel pistols....they can handle 18gr. FFg 777 in 36 cal.and 22 gr. FFg 777 in the 44's.
Anywhooooo......if you take a 7/8ths by 1 -3/8ths 14 gauge narrow rimmed bushing (tractor stores and hardwares stores usually have them,) file it a little to fit around the brass framers recoil shields ring and cut it away for the hammer and the loading port, solder it to the frame, clean up the mess, and stone the nipples shorter by the thickness of the bushing or the recoil shields ring height, and the brasser is good to go for a life time of normal,not light, loads. Normal being 20-22 gr.FFFg black powder for the 36's and 25-26gr. FFFg for the 44's. You'd find out that if yer brasser has a normal cylinder gap and good alignment to the chambers and bore(so the ball isn't banging the side of the breech end of the barrel ) and the wedge fits right(bottomed arbor won't hurt either) the guns will last a very long time and the proverbial stretching frame or loosening arbor won't be apparent for decades if ever. It''s all in that confounded ring on the recoil shield banging in in the six places the cylinder hits it and loosening the cylinder gap that tears a Colt apart. Protect the recoil shields ring and thus the cylinder gap and the brassers are a good deal for the money and will shoot tight a long long time.
One better than the ring of thin steel bushing to bolster the brass ring would be to mill that danged brass ring out of the brassers frame and replace it with a pressed in and loctited or soldered in  tool steel ring. That would work I'd say. It isn't the brass frame itself that can't take the stress it's that narrow little brass ring on the recoil shield that is the aciles heel to a brass framer.
The steel plate behind the cylinder does do a good job of speading the force the cylinder emites to the frame and that's a good thing. Spread the recoil force out. The steel ring pressed in place of the bass ring wouldn't spread the force but.... the ring made of steel would take the punishment and the solder and the "brass behind the steel ring" would hold it good and spead the force enough I'd guess.

[brazosdave]

Don't know brother. I toned down my fffg 777 load to 23 grn for my steel 1860, and it shoots great! No overpressure.