Vetterli help?

Started by River City John, March 26, 2012, 08:20:00 AM

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Pitspitr

#20
March 28, 2012, 06:33:45 AM
If you play Old Jules you'll need to get meaner and make sure you leave your horse saddled in the barn long enough that when the neighbors take it's saddle off the horses skin comes with it. :P I work with one of Mari's cousins

Captain Miles Keogh and Captain (Bvt. Col.) J. J. Coppinger (the post commander at Fort Hartsuff 1875-1878) were close friends and both served in the Swiss Guard before imigrating to America where they both served in the Civil War prior to being sent west to fight indians. Maybe a former Swiss Guard serving in the US Army who broght his Vetterli with him would be an appropriate persona.
I remain, Your Ob'd Servant,
Jerry M. "Pitspitr" Davenport
(Bvt.)Brigadier General Commanding,
Grand Army of the Frontier
BC/IT, Expert, Sharpshooter, Marksman, CC, SoM
NRA CRSO, RVWA IIT2; SASS ROI, ROII;
NRA Benefactor Life; AZSA Life; NCOWS Life

River City John

#21
April 08, 2012, 11:27:51 AM
Quote from: Delmonico on March 27, 2012, 07:05:43 PM
I'll see if I can find my copy of Old Jules by Marie Sandoz, that's where I got it.

Read enough that there is some question whether it wasn't a Vetterli single-shot.

RCJ
"I was born by the river in a little tent, and just like the river I've been running ever since." - Sam Cooke
"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
". . .freedom is not everything or the only thing, perhaps we will put that discovery behind us and comprehend, before it's too late, that without freedom all else is nothing."- G. Warren Nutter
NCOWS #L146
GAF #275

River City John

#22
April 14, 2012, 08:04:20 PM
Well, as it happens, I have TWO Vetterli's now, a converted one of an earlier serial number, and an unconverted one in Fine grade with a ramrod (converted one didn't have a ramrod and was a bit rough, but good bore.) that falls in the 1877 serial date.

Danged if there wasn't just enough hand finishing on these mid 1870's rifles that the bolts do not really interchange.

So in checking, no gunsmith in my area does the conversions.
Any GAF personnel who are gunsmiths with experience converting rim fire bolts to centerfire? Charles Isaac, is this up your alley?

http://www.militaryrifles.com/Switzerland/VetConversion/VetterliShooting.html

The above site gives a good tutorial on one way to modify the bolt and firing pin. I prefer this method as it preserves the double-pronged rimfire striker if you ever wanted to return it to original configuration.

RCJ
"I was born by the river in a little tent, and just like the river I've been running ever since." - Sam Cooke
"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
". . .freedom is not everything or the only thing, perhaps we will put that discovery behind us and comprehend, before it's too late, that without freedom all else is nothing."- G. Warren Nutter
NCOWS #L146
GAF #275

pony express

#23
April 15, 2012, 02:54:44 PM
RCJ, looking at the diagram in that link made me wonder....maybe if you dis-assembled the bolt assembly and use the converted bolt and striker??? Or is there too much hand fitting for that to work.

River City John

#24
April 15, 2012, 07:15:43 PM
I disassembled both and tried to piece together a converted bolt out of both that would fit. The extractors were of two different dimensions because they were hand fitted, and the firing pins were of slightly different lengths. The narrower extractor was on the unconverted bolt, and there is a channel that it rides in when bolt is pulled back. It actually measured a bit longer in length also, with a longer trough it fitted in on top of the bolt.
ARRGH!

Preliminary fiddling with all the parts was unsuccessful, and I did not want to start filing or grinding here and there yet.

The type of conversion done on the one used the two pronged rimfire striker with the horns ground down so they would no longer extend past the face of the end of the bolt and a hole drilled through the center with a free floating firing pin. The long striker pin was unaltered.

What I like also about the method shown in the link conversion is that the new centerfire firing pin is one piece with the striker, so it is pulled back out of the way when the bolt is worked to eject the shell casing and is locked back ready to fire the next cartridge.

RCJ
"I was born by the river in a little tent, and just like the river I've been running ever since." - Sam Cooke
"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
". . .freedom is not everything or the only thing, perhaps we will put that discovery behind us and comprehend, before it's too late, that without freedom all else is nothing."- G. Warren Nutter
NCOWS #L146
GAF #275

River City John

#25
April 16, 2012, 01:32:44 PM
Found someone who does the conversions.  ;D
"I was born by the river in a little tent, and just like the river I've been running ever since." - Sam Cooke
"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
". . .freedom is not everything or the only thing, perhaps we will put that discovery behind us and comprehend, before it's too late, that without freedom all else is nothing."- G. Warren Nutter
NCOWS #L146
GAF #275

sail32

#26
April 22, 2012, 02:00:14 PM

River City John

#27
April 22, 2012, 03:43:13 PM
Yes, thank you.

RCJ
"I was born by the river in a little tent, and just like the river I've been running ever since." - Sam Cooke
"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
". . .freedom is not everything or the only thing, perhaps we will put that discovery behind us and comprehend, before it's too late, that without freedom all else is nothing."- G. Warren Nutter
NCOWS #L146
GAF #275

pony express

#28
April 22, 2012, 10:12:58 PM
Here's a thread I had seen before about loading for Swiss Vetterli: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=145086

There's other threads if you search their archives.

River City John

#29
April 23, 2012, 08:15:08 AM
Thanks Pony.
That's one I had not seen.

RCJ
"I was born by the river in a little tent, and just like the river I've been running ever since." - Sam Cooke
"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
". . .freedom is not everything or the only thing, perhaps we will put that discovery behind us and comprehend, before it's too late, that without freedom all else is nothing."- G. Warren Nutter
NCOWS #L146
GAF #275

pony express

#30
May 05, 2012, 09:44:44 PM
Here's another source for obsolete ammunition I ran across on another forum. No pricelist, just a huge list of calibers, looks like you have to e-mail them for availability and price.
http://www.ammunitions.com/order.htm

Saw 2 lengths of Swiss Vetterli rounds. (38 and 42mm)

River City John

#31
May 11, 2012, 03:52:28 PM
Well, received approval to shoot my Vetterli in the Mid-/Long Range sidematch at the NCOWS National in June by the National Judge.

Now if I can only get my bolt back from the smith converting it, I can try to test loads I've worked up.

I hope to develop documentation to submit to have it approved in main matches, as it was used on the Nebraska frontier during the time period.
RCJ
"I was born by the river in a little tent, and just like the river I've been running ever since." - Sam Cooke
"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
". . .freedom is not everything or the only thing, perhaps we will put that discovery behind us and comprehend, before it's too late, that without freedom all else is nothing."- G. Warren Nutter
NCOWS #L146
GAF #275

River City John

#32
June 17, 2012, 11:34:14 PM
As an after action report on shooting the Vetterli in Long Range.

We shot three courses of ten rounds each at 200yds., 170yds. and 140yds, with three sighting rounds allowed per position. All the shooters shot in order sitting on somewhat springy wooden picnic tables with elbows resting on the table. Three shooters per table, so we tried real hard to keep movement to a minimum

Long story short I made 13 hits out of 30. While the recoil was not bad, accumulative my shoulder was pretty sore by the time we got to the final set of ten rounds, and I knew I was flinching in anticipation of the pummeling my shoulder took.

I was pleased though, considering I was using the original open military sights and had never fired the rifle. I used brass formed out of 8mm Lebel cases and a 320gr. bullet sized .430, and about 43 gr. Triple 7, or just enough to fill the case to halfway up the neck before seating the bullet. Since we shot as single-shot, I could have seated my bullet a bit deeper in the case as OAL to fit the lifting carrier wasn't an issue. It ended up I was using 5:00 hold below the bottom of the target and two to three widths of the front blade to the right, depending on how the flag was flying off the flagpole.

At least I got a good start on fire-forming my brass.

By the way, the bolt for conversion I had sent off to Gad Custom Cartridges had not arrived by the time I left (I had sent it mid-April!), so I shot another Vetterli I had picked up that was already converted but in a bit rougher shape.

Can't wait to get my bolt back for the other Vetterli so I can fine tune my load for the Muster.

RCJ
"I was born by the river in a little tent, and just like the river I've been running ever since." - Sam Cooke
"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
". . .freedom is not everything or the only thing, perhaps we will put that discovery behind us and comprehend, before it's too late, that without freedom all else is nothing."- G. Warren Nutter
NCOWS #L146
GAF #275

RattlesnakeJack

#33
June 18, 2012, 01:04:39 AM
Sounds like it's going to work out pretty well, John. 

I look forward to seeing your rifle(s) - do you have a related uniform yet?  ;)
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Grenadier

#34
August 14, 2012, 07:33:35 AM
Heres a little something from my collection of Swiss militaria. I have a rather large collection of uniforms, gear and various other kit. I have gathered this over the past few years in CH while visiting family.

This uniform and tschako was used from the late 1890's up thru WW1 and even some making appearances later. Replicas of these uniforms are non-existant as far as I know and I know a group in CH who recreates soldiers from this period. They all use original uniforms!  :o



River City John

#35
August 18, 2012, 06:16:50 PM
There are several original shakos on eBay right now, and good condition ones with insignia in place seem to run QUITE EXPENSIVE!

I have about given up trying to recreate a uniform for the very reason you stated, that repro's are nonexistent and originals are not only prohibitive, but I would be reluctant to risk abuse in use.

But then again, I do have an historical example for a persona that was non-military and native to my state during the era . . . ;D
Thanks for the nice reference picture Grenadier.
RCJ
"I was born by the river in a little tent, and just like the river I've been running ever since." - Sam Cooke
"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
". . .freedom is not everything or the only thing, perhaps we will put that discovery behind us and comprehend, before it's too late, that without freedom all else is nothing."- G. Warren Nutter
NCOWS #L146
GAF #275

Grenadier

#36
August 27, 2012, 10:24:52 AM
Tschakos are getting expensive, especially in Switzerland. Five years ago, you could pick up a decent Fusilier tschako for $75 to $100, but that has changed recently. I reluctantly passed on a decent artillery one in Zurich last month for $85. I regret that now  :-\
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