question for you all...starting out again...BP or smokeless?? need opinions

[Meramac Kid]

so im working on starting out again in CAS. i have shot 2 diffrent times before and due to something comming up i had to stop for one reason or the other. i am wanting to try and start shooting again here sometime soon hopefully. but i have a question for you all. the black powder is really starting to trip my trigger some and i am thinking about starting out with it. mainly due to cost of getting guns being a little cheaper.
the question i have in your alls opinion is it cheaper or more expensive to shoot BP over smokeless like 38 special?
now i will say that i do reload as well as cast my own bullets for a 40 S&W i shoot now jsut for fun.
with doing some looking around as far as pistols go i could cast my own round balls.
but im a little courious on rifle cartriges as well as a shotgun as well. i dont know a lot about them as far as the BP goes.
i know i could look for something like a 66 in a 44-40 but have heard some say the 44-40 is a pain to reload for some reason.
and the shotgun i dont know anything about. i know you can get brass cases for a 12ga. but will any shotgun work for a BP gun? been lookin at a Balaki ( sure i spelled that wrong) its a hammered double, checked it out at a local gun shop the other day and it seems to be a nice gun opens good and wide and it felt pretty good.
so whats say yous...can you all give me some opinions please.

thanks
Kid

[Cliff Fendley]

44-40 is not a pain to reload. It's really no more trouble than any thing else. I have started using some spray lube on my brass so that is the only extra step compared to 45 or 38. I have actually loaded a bunch of 44-40 rounds without using lube and never had one stick or cause a problem. They are so straight walled it doesn't seem to matter. I usually don't bother with lube on new brass since it's pretty well sized anyway but I do give them a light dusting of spray lube on reloads.

If your making your own bullets then that cost is about the same. Provided your shooting black powder and smokeless in the same caliber your going to be using the same amount of lead. You might pay a little more for the BP lube unless you make your own.

It does cost more for the black powder only because you use a lot more of it than with most smokeless CAS loads.

I'm just getting into BP cartridges and did notice real quick about the amount of powder consumed compared to smokeless.

I can only load around 200 44-40 with a pound of black but can load over 1000 with a pound of trail boss.

I also found out real quick how much more fun the black powder is so it's worth it.

[Pony Racer]

On money - the way to make BP pwder cheaper than smokeless is getting together with friends and buying a case or two of the BP stuff together.

My VA F&B posse members and I have spent 500.00 on two cases - 50 lbs of BP.  Thats 10.00 a can - you can not get snokeless or BP subs for that price.

The bullets may cost just a little bit more with BP lube but there are several cowboy sources for BP lubed lead bullets and very competitive prices for those of us, including me, that do not make their own bullets.

I turned towards BP back in 2004/2005 and have not looked back.

I do shoot other things with smokeless ammo, hunting and plinking with my GSG-5, but love me some BP for my cowboy shooting.

[Cliff Fendley]

Yes the black powder cost a lot less per pound (almost half) but smokeless will load five times more per pound. Do the math, BP cost a lot more for powder, bullets are about double if you are not making your own.

That's what I've found so far, I can buy 44wcf smokeless bullets for 48 dollars per 1000 in a buying group our posse does once a year. I haven't found a source for good BP bullets close to that price.

Any way I look at it the black powder does cost a bit more to shoot.

But as I said before it's worth it for all the added fun.

[Slowhand Bob]

OH. but there is another way to drive the cost of bp cartridges down, waaay down.  The downside of my suggestion will be start up cost.  I have actually been using the substitutes for many years now, started with the old Cleanshot, then moved to Pinnacle and have now settled in on APP.  First thing off was the big added expense of using subs, the current makers of real black have raised prices until the differences do not seem as great now, but there are price/convenience offsets with using it.  Not a caster and got tired of the problems associated with bp specific lubes and pan lubing in the oven, I switched to the subs.  They work great with smokeless lube or  supposedly even better with no lube.  I used grits for years to get my volume down, primarily settled in on around a 24 to 26gr load under those grits.  Grits were always the weak point of trying to load on my LNL AP, the fine powder residue would always bind the press down after around 100 to 150 rounds with the extral cleaning always slowing things to a crawl.  The answer was AJs new short case offering, the Cowboy 45 Special.  Add in a short carrier and it will work slick as snot to reduce the cost of your bp cartridge loads to go with the cap and ball pistols.  Really want to do her up right, buy a set of the '58 Rems with short barls and later add the Kirst 45 cylinders in to allow double the pleasure and double the fun, shooting BP Cartridge, BCD or  Frontiersman as the desire tickles you!  

This will work just as well with the 44 Russian cartridge, or so I have heard?  I even read a post some time back where a pard claims to be swapping a short carrier in and out of his 44-40 and shooting Russians from the rifle when the notion strikes?  Think I would investigate that claim a bit before acting on it though!  I would think the case head would be small and the body would be even smaller in that chamber, just loosely hanging there by part of a rim?

[Pony Racer]

SB irt 44 russians- that would be a trick in a half!

I have a 1866, in 44 special converted to shoot 44 russians.  It is mostly true that with a completely different carrier you could again shoot 44 special - but would love to see it done in anything resembling a quick manner...

I shoot 44 russians out of my gun but did so not to save money but pair up some 44 russian OT's with a long rifle.

I also have a set of caps and balls I like to shoot with it too!

CF - I went into a Gander Mountain the other day and with current cost of 1lb of 777 + tax I can buy 3 cans of 2F.  APP was not as bad cost wise. But I would say for the most part you can not buy subs cheaper than BP, with subs it more convenience and getting to shoot something like BP where BP is either hard to get or not allowed. You don't have to use BP lubed bullets, but I question still the APP works better with reg lube idea - I shot it for 3 years straight and my experience is exact opposite of that.

Due to loading volume you can make smokeless powders go further no arguement there.

My experience with APP and bullet lubes is different than many - my guns would start to bind bad, rifle and pistol with smokeless lubes and APP, yet go for stages with no issues when I mated my BP lubed bullets with the same APP.

I have no idea why...just know what I dealt with for three years.
PR

[Cliff Fendley]

I'll no longer mess with the subs except I do shoot 777 in my inline muzzleloading rifle.

Otherwise I'm either going to shoot smokeless or black, not some smokeless that is a black powder wannabe.

[litl rooster]

did I miss something here? Has the Darkside been moved? Why are the Heathen Powders even being mention here?

[August]

I hope you have a lot of fun and success in your return to action shooting.  None of us could live without it.

You asked for opinion, so I'll share mine.

Before you start with black powder, get all of your guns running smoothly with smokeless powder.  I once asked a very seasoned shooter how long it took him to get all his guns running the way he wanted.  Without blinking, he said "ten years."  My experience is the same.

But, I didn't wait that long to start shooting black powder.  Just get the guns to the point where you get through a match without malfunctions or having to think about them.  Shoot several matches with smokeless until you're sure of your guns.

Then, switch over.  Again, you asked for opinion, so Black powder is more fun than smokeless.  I don't know why this is, but there is something special about shooting black powder in competition.  Only use BLACK POWDER.  Do not mess around with substitutes.  People will tell you that substitute powders are easier to use, or easier to clean.  Neither of these statements is true in my experience.  Substitute powders are extremely corrosive and who know what breathing them does to a person?  Use only black powder in properly prepared guns, with properly lubricated bullets.

Black powder is much, much more expensive to shoot than smokeless powder.  If you factor in the extra time for loading black powder rounds, the cost is even higher.  But, the cost IS NOT prohibitive.  And, the amount of fun I get out of shooting black powder is worth more than the extra cost to me.

Good luck.  Hope to see you at a match someday.

[Buzzard II]

Go with the Holy Black!  Smokeless is just a passing fad anyway!