.36 conicals for cap and ball revolver interest

[Deadguy]

Howdy Sir Charles, and others.

I don't have no back burners.  I'm moving ahead way faster than my bank account.  As it now looks, I'll be working with all of you to bring Two different .36 Cal. C&B bullet designs forward.  One will copy the EPP-UG and emulate round ball performance.  The other will run around130 grains and be a true conical.  The 130 grain design will also have to work in 32-20 rifles.

She's a coming and she will be lovely when she arrives.

DD-DLoS

There is NO WAY a .36 cal conical will work in a 32-20!  A .36 cal conical needs to be AT LEAST .375" diameter to work, and the 32-20 takes a .314" diameter bullet.

[Dick Dastardly]

Yup Deadguy,

That's been a conundrum.  I get lots of pards that want the same bullet to work in all them guns.  The sizes are just beyond one design.

I fear that a design that would allow that much diversity would have too fragile driving bands to guarantee concentric bullets after lube/sizing.  The .32 already exists and I have one of the original molds in an Eighty grain Big Lube™ design that I shoot out of my spur trigger Remington.

Dick

[Kindral Kaido]

Howdy Mako,

Realyl Nice Bullet. I salute you as we are thinking alike. Would you believe about the same time I also conceived a similar bullet, except my bullet would have a narrower lube ring and be 140 to 145 grains, I have thought of a 150 grainer as well. I discussed this a while ago with Dick Dastardly. I hope you can get some one to make a good 6 cavity bullet mold, I know I'd like to be one of your 1st customers. More and more as people use the 36 caliber for hunting they will want such a bullet. Right on the money.

This is what a 130 grain .36 caliber bullet designed specifically for C&B revolvers looks like.  I call it the MAKO - LTSW©.  It is designed to fit under the loading ram on any C&B revolver that has a clearance cut in the barrel underlug to allow conical projectiles.

The bullet has a relatively long rebated lead to allow guided insertion into the chamber. The bullet will sit approximately .375" above the cylinder face when seated in the chamber.  The truncated ogive will fit the ram face just as a ball does but with less of a contact patch.

The lube groove is generous, it actually has a larger groove volume  to diameter ratio than most of the current Big Lube® bullets or other bullets designed specifically for the Holy Black.

~Mako

[Mako]

Wow, you resurrected an old one.

The problem I ran into was making a bullet that was 130 grains that would fit under the barrel opening of three Navy models I chose as my baseline pistols.  One is a Uberti '51, the next a Pietta '51 and the last a Uberti Leech & Rigdon.  Surprisingly the two Ubertis are different.  I have a pair of '61s that will swallow anything because of the gaping opening so they aren't in the mix.

We can make bullets even in the weights you specified, but they will have to be loaded on a loading stand.  Do that and the gallery will howl...  My goal was (and still is) to make a bullet that can be loaded using the on pistol loading arm.

I got side tracked a few months back with some extra-curricular activities and I was out of pocket.  I will get back to this just as soon as I get a few other things taken care of.

I get to under 125 grains and I hit a wall, that is even with the groove being made a bit smaller than the Big Lube profile.  I don't want to do that, if Dick is going to sell the molds it truly need to be a Big Lube.  If you look at a '51 ogive clearance cut they are narrow and usually severely tapered.  The cut for the opening is also a swung profile and it limits wide short aspect profiles on bullet ogives.

I had a toolmaker make one simple check mold and it cast way too light.  About 10 grains lighter than predicted with pure lead and it wouldn't fit.  I then decided it was easier to make pieces for trial fits on a lathe out of aluminum.  Once I have a profile that fits I'll make another test mold.  I have made corrections to the material properties settings in the CAD program I'm using so it should be pretty much dead on next time.  I double checked it with a pure lead swaged ball and it agrees now.

Later,
Mako

[Drayton Calhoun]

Bruce,
I am extremely relieved to read your latest post, my world is now back on an even keel.  I was beginning to worry the color of your sky and mine were of a different color...

I will however remind you that you did say you never had a knock down not drop for you in response to my lament that an 80 grain ball wouldn't reliably drop a reactive target.  And you went on to say you used an 1851 without saying you didn't consider that it wasn't reliable for taking down reactive targets.

I will disagree with you about two things you just said in this last post:

• You contend that, "No, I don't believe that the .36 would have taken down the knockdows<sic>: even with conical bullets..." A 130 grain bullet at 775 to 800 fps will take down the reactive targets I have encountered.  I know this because family members shoot 130 grain .38 spl loads with Trail Boss that I load for them and have not ever failed to take down a reactive target they actually hit.  So conical 130 gr. bullets in a Navy caliber revolver are basically a ballistic analog to these .38 spl loads.


• It doesn't take longer to load a Colt pattern revolver if you disassemble it, I would argue that the opposite is true.  I exclusively shoot Colt pattern percussion pistols and have for years.  I would be willing to lay money that I can out load you and I disassemble both pistols after every stage.   I disassemble, inspect, clean and charge each pistol at the unloading table each and every stage except for the last one.   I take care to perform my duties as a posse member as well as being a percussion pistol shooter.

One of the reasons I designed the Mako-LTSW© was to allow people who weren't using 1861s or who didn't disassemble to have a 130 grain bullet they could easily load.  If I were just planning on being the sole user almost any design would work since I load off of the revolver. You will note the 1861's have the increased clearance feature like the 1860 and 1862 models in the barrel lug, you can get almost anything under the rammer on these models.  It is the 1851 pattern pistols and the Confederate copies that have the clearance issues.

With this last post you have actually refuted your original post concerning why there wasn't a need for a heavier projectile than the 80 grain ball for .36 caliber C&B revolvers.  You have told us, "No, I don't believe that the .36 would have taken down the knockdows<sic>" Which is what I originally said, and was the reason I offered as the need for a heavier .36 caliber bullet.  You do realize that the .451 diameter balls you use in your .44 Army model weigh 136 grains or less don't you?  You state, "I used the .44 for the knockdowns and the .36 for the plates."  The 136 grain balls worked, why wouldn't a 130 grain bullet?  So when you say, "No, I don't believe that the .36 would have taken down the knockdows<sic>: even with conical bullets (you can find my thread on them, as well), " I would have to ask you what is so different about a Ø.451 ball and a Ø.380 "conical" bullet which weighs 130 grains when it comes to moving steel?

One last thing...if you chronograph your Navy model shooting a 130 grain bullet and your Army model shooting balls you are going to find what appears to be a paradox.  The .36 caliber bullet can reach the same velocity as the .44 ball with about 5 grains less powder.  I will leave that for you to cogitate for yourself and to test it if you think I am wrong.

So I leave you with these last thoughts:
My original closing statement still remains as I said in my original post to you, "You see, there are reasonable arguments for someone wanting a heavier projectile than a Ø.380 ball."  What has changed, isn't that a valid and I would even venture to say a strong argument for a conical bullet for the .36 caliber revolvers?

I'd also be willing to bet James Butler Hickok would use a heavier bullet than an 80 grain ball if he were loading up at the table next to you at your next match. Why would I say that?  Because Wild Bill hated to lose, I have read he didn't even trust cartridge pistols because he couldn't be sure that someone had actually put powder in the cartridges.  Furthermore we always associate Hickok with the 1851 revolver, we do so because of his presentation pair that are in museums today.  I have read that in the famous Tutt fight where he shot him through the heart at 75 yards he was actually carrying a pair of .44 Dragoons and in another documented fight with Phil Coe he was carrying .44 Army models.  I have also read that Hickok actually carried .44 Army models more so than he did the Navy models.  I actually believe he did carry .44s instead of .36s when he expected trouble, any man who would shoot a C&B revolver in 1876 because he was concerned about reliability and whether or not they were properly charged would be the first to use a larger caliber in the weapon type he preferred.  This is of course conjecture on my part, but I believe it is a reasonable assumption.

Regards,
Mako

I had read somewhere that Hickok had used a Dragoon in the Tutt gunfight, but couldn't remember where I had read it. Considering the autopsy report on Tutt, the wound sounds more like a Dragoon wound than a Navy.

[Mako]

Another old one!

You guys must be missing him as much as I do.  Where is Bruce when we have some serious jawing to do?

Okay, it seems I need to move this one up on my list of priorities.

Regards and Merry Christmas to all,
Mako

[Griff]

Griff,
My hat is off to you just for style points alone.  But you really should get a picture of yourself with a manly grip...
~Mako

Having been resurrected, I reviewed the topic and found I was remiss... I've had "manly" shootin' pics since before there was a "Duelist" category of any kind.  We sometimes REQUIRED one-handed shooting back in the day, and we also require holding of one long gun or the other while you were at it!  Then again, we experimented with all kinds of different things... not all of them conducive to FUN in shooting!    From about 1992:


I had a thought at the time, and neglected to post... but, why do we have to do these in 6-gang molds?  I'm generally just as productive with a 4-gang.  I go just as fast, but, while I produce fewer in a specified casting session, I end up with far, far fewer rejects.

Merry Christmas and Blessings for the New Year.

[Kindral Kaido]

Greetings Cowboys and Cowgirls

Last week I , designed and sent for production, of  a Round Flat Noise Bullet of 140+- grains for 36 Caliber Cap and Ball Percussion Revolvers. This is a copy of my bigger, VKV BG 456 and VKV BG 460 Bullets, which are basically the LEE 255 grain RFN Bullet tapered with bands to fit into Cap and Ball Revolvers. I designed this with Hunters, Cowboy Actions Shooters, Target Shooters and Plinkers in mild, hence the name of the bullet SMG ,(Small Medium Game) The molds are Two Cavity. This is a custom manufactured Bullet mold made by LEE Precision. The molds  and cast Bullets as well, should be available in 7 weeks time, Cost of the molds are $49.99 each plus shipping via Post office. Check out my You Tube Videos under, Mr. kaido93.


Kindral Kaido

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Kindral;  Can your bullet load on the frame of a repro Colt navy?  See Mako's post above.