44-40 Henry vs 56-50 Spencer WHich one?

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I am posting this on both the Henry and Spencer Forums here.  I have a 44-40 Spencer (which I think is sold), and am replacing it with either a 44-40 Henry (which I prefer over the 44-40 Spencer), or a 56-50 Spencer (If I am slow with a Spencer, I want it to have THUMP to make up for speed).  I no longer re-enact Civil War, and only do CAS matches, where 44-40 is mu caliber.  For most of the first 10 or 12 years in SASS, I used a Henry, then in about 2006 switched to Spencers.

I am really stuck here.  I really love them both as "styling" platforms.  The plus for the 44-40 Henry is that I already load for it for my pistols, and the 56-50 would be expensive to get 150 brass, mold, and dies.  The plus for the 56-50 Spencer is CLASS and THUMP, and an excuse for shooting slow.

Post your arguments for which you think.  It is more entertaining than a coin toss!

[Major 2]

I posted over on the Spencer BB

"Well, I traded my 45 Schofield Spencer for a NIB Iron Frame Henry if that helps....

course , when I did it I still had the original you bought from me.....
the other issue, at the time the SASS club I shot with did not allow Spencers  (claimed damage to targets   )
funny thing though , when they said NO Spencer, they included all Calibers  

That has since changed"  

I'll add,  I have 3 Henry's and would not trade them !

[Sean Thornton]

Since you are not worried about speed, the choice seems clear to me, get a Spencer Rifle in .56-50.  You could be one of Custer's Michigan boys and think of the style points you would get using a Spencer Rifle.

With that said why not get a Henry and a Spencer, unfortunately there may be a little thing like money, well at least for me anyway. 

I am posting this on both the Henry and Spencer Forums here.  I have a 44-40 Spencer (which I think is sold), and am replacing it with either a 44-40 Henry (which I prefer over the 44-40 Spencer), or a 56-50 Spencer (If I am slow with a Spencer, I want it to have THUMP to make up for speed).  I no longer re-enact Civil War, and only do CAS matches, where 44-40 is mu caliber.  For most of the first 10 or 12 years in SASS, I used a Henry, then in about 2006 switched to Spencers.

I am really stuck here.  I really love them both as "styling" platforms.  The plus for the 44-40 Henry is that I already load for it for my pistols, and the 56-50 would be expensive to get 150 brass, mold, and dies.  The plus for the 56-50 Spencer is CLASS and THUMP, and an excuse for shooting slow.

Post your arguments for which you think.  It is more entertaining than a coin toss!

[DJ]

The Spencer has the style points hands down.  The Henry has the speed over the Spencer (and in .44-40, at least some style points).  I say get the Spencer and then talk your stage writers into writing a couple of "Spencer" stages, where everybody comes to the line with 7 in their rifle magazine and has to reload 3 on the clock.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Since you are not worried about speed, the choice seems clear to me, get a Spencer Rifle in .56-50.  You could be one of Custer's Michigan boys and think of the style points you would get using a Spencer Rifle.

With that said why not get a Henry and a Spencer, unfortunately there may be a little thing like money, well at least for me anyway. 

Haha! Great solution!  Unfortunately, as money is an issue, I will be lucky to have one of them!  Which ever I do choose, I would like to get the other, too, at some point.

[PJ Hardtack]

I've got both a 44-40 Henry and a '66. When it comes to capacity, I have the edge. I'd dearly love a 56-50 Spencer, and when I get one, I'll use it and damn the clock!

BUT - I'd like to see a stage or two (if not ALL) where mag capacity was not a factor, placing the emphasis on the shooter's ability to hit targets smaller than the size of a card table.

Some of you weren't around in the days of 'one gun' (usually a .44 or .45) when we shot targets with both rifle and pistol that were challenging to hit. I took a break from the sport and when I returned, it was two pistols and targets I thought were designed for myopic little old ladies.

We used to use a great 'Duelling Tree' but it fell into disuse when we got the new crop of shooters who couldn't hit the targets!
Speed took over shooting skill, and it has remained so.

[Coffinmaker]

You already had a Henry.  You already reload for a 44-40 Henry.  44-40 shoots really clean in Togglt Link rifles.  You can do an action job or action job and short stroke on a Henry and make it real user friendly.  What's to choose???

Henry.

Coffinmaker

[PJ Hardtack]

Someone 'splain why you would shoot a Henry (or any other CAS lever action rifle) and fit it with a 'short stroke' kit ..... ;>(

One either likes Cowboy guns for what they are and can do or not. 'twas a time the stock answer to equipment eligibility was "If John Wayne would use it, it's OK." That's long since gone by the board .....
He may have used '92s and Colt SAAs in movies that weren't correct for the era of the story, but somehow the "Duke" usin' a short stroke Winchester just don't seem right .....

But, diff'rent strokes fer diff'rent folks .....  ;>)

[Coffinmaker]

OK, P J.  First wake up and smell the coffee.  We try real hard around here NOT to reply to folks in a manner intended to make them feel stupid.  You need to try a little harder.  Your comparisons to the Duke by the way, are really lame.

CAS is a game.  A fantasy game.  A TIMED fantasy game.  A game for everyone to play in their own way.  Stock Toggle Link rifles are not necessarily real user friendly, plus with stock springs, they can and will "eat" their own innards rather quickly from excessive wear.  An action job will eliminate this.  For an awful lot of us, Short Stroked guns are simply a lot more fun and allow competition in a TIMED event.  That clarify it for 'ya??  Looked into NCOWS yet??

Coffinmaker

PS:  We really don't appreciate Trolls.

[PJ Hardtack]

Asking a reasonable question is making people feel stupid? Guess I hit a nerve, huh?

"MY comparisons to the Duke" are NOT mine, BTW. That was the stock answer from the SAS powers-that-be regarding equipment eligibility as more and more gamers came into the sport. Guess you weren't around back then ....

- Since it's a "fantasy game", why have rules and restrictions at all?
- You can't have fun in a "TIMED event" with a stock gun?

Yes, I have looked into NCOWS and if I lived closer to one of their groups, I'd be among them. I'm still waiting for my stock '66, Henry and Browning '92 to "eat" their own innards. Guess I'm not working them hard enough.

Don't talk down to me and accuse me of being a "troll" for expressing an opinion. I've got an opinion of people like you, but I'll reserve it. My question still stands .....

[Major 2]

Gently , Pards ..... GENTLY !

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Just a clarification. The "John Wayne" reference by PJ is VERY germane to this discussion. For those that have started CAS since 2000 or so, when I started in SASS back in 1994, the rule book was a pamphlet about 1/4" thick and 3"x5" size!  I clearly stated that the ultimate test for SASS legality was "The John Wayne Test"  ie "would John Wayne have done it, used it, etc."  

 I could care less if folks use short stroke kits, etc. Whatever floats their boat. I have been shooting stock guns for 18 years, however, and they have not eaten themselves up yet!

I have no wish to fan fires.  There is room for everyone to compete their own way. With that said, most of the changes to SASS would not come close to passing the John Wayne Test. SASS has evolved in response to the shooters whims and wishes.  It is what it is, no longer is what it was.  "Vox Populi"

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I do not generally get involved in internet p*ssing contests, but I am bothered by disingenuous arguments....

Being a military and police armorer for more years than I can count, I want to address the myth that "stock guns will eat their innards" or what ever.  Much of the aftermarket nonsense products are marketed with so much BS, trying to convince the masses that they need a titanium firing pin because the factory ones are inferior, or new links are needed because factory one suck....  You see the same nonsense in the black rifle world where a fancy-dancy AR15 flash hider sells for $200, when the $5 GI one is incredibly effective.  It is all marketing BS and hype to take money from one person with a completely serviceable firearm, telling him it isn't serviceable or optimum.

I have fired dozens of weapons that were pre-1898 or at least 100 years old.  1860 Spencer, Smith carbine, Colt 1873s, Winchester 1873s, 1892s, Rolling Blocks, Marlins 1881, 1889, 11894, 1893, 1897, Smith and Wesson No 3s, ad-infinitum....  Then lets talk about the 70 year old WWII weapons I have fired.  ALL have original parts, and have not eaten themselves up, and many have fired more rounds than can be counted.  My well used, but stock Inland M1 Carbine will still shoot clover leafs at 25 yards.

Consider the quality of metalurgy we have today.  Is it now inferior to that of the 1891 produced 38-40 Colt I had??

If a person wants goo-gahs to be faster, just admit it.  It has nothing to do with factory guns being built to self destruct.

[PJ Hardtack]

Tuolumne Lawman

Thanks for the injection of history, logic, reason and common sense! These usually fall aside when a couple of Cowpokes stand nose to nose over something.

Back in the days of one pistol, SASS was a different game than it is today. The .44/.45 was 'King' as were stiff, Cowboy loads. It was part of the 'Spirit of the Game'. Then it evolved into an equipment race, the market flooded with 'must have' goodies in order to feel competitive. It became IPSC in Cowboy Boots.
The irony was that while external mods were banned, the innards were another matter. SASS hung onto the "John Wayne" test long after it was only paying lip service to it.

NCOWS still adheres to the "John Wayne" principle. However, that doesn't make them right and everyone else wrong - or vice versa. Just a different philosophy.

My first CAS pistol was a Ruger Vaquero in .44 Mag and a Marlin .357 carbine. The Vaquero was barely tolerated as it was stainless and in a non-Cowboy calibre. I shot .44 Spl. cases which cut me some slack. The .357 carbine was laughed at as a 'girly gun' and again, barely tolerated due to it's modern calibre and MicroGroove barrel. But, they got me going.

I remember having to declare my load when registering. Always puzzled me as to why. Turned out it was because there were always 'knock down' targets and they wanted to have a record of what worked to cut down on protests about hard set targets.
This was an attempt at a power floor but didn't work as the 'gamers' loaded accordingly - loads with a good power factor where needed and wimp loads elsewhere.
There was no way to beat the rule beaters so everyone gave up. Some, like Mike Venturino and Butch Ulscher even walked away from the sport altogether and went into BPCR. When writing his book on "Shooting Colt Single Actions", Venturino had to refit a 44-40 back to .38 Spl. in order to have one to test! Most .38 Spl.s had been rebarreled with .44/.45 barrels and bored out or new cylinders fitted.

But, that's history. The sport goes on and we all get to play with our toys as we wish.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

When I started in 1994, the VAST majority of SASS shooters shot .45 Colt or 44-40. In fact, I did not know anyone that had the nerve to show up at a match with .38s, except maybe a gal.  If I remember correctly, Rossi was the first to chamber a rifle in .45 Colt with their 24" Model 65 (1892 clone) 1/2 round/ 1/2 octagon barrel about 1995.  By the late 90s, .38-40, .45 schofield, .44 Russian, and .44 Special became popular.  .44 Russians and Schofields with light bullets (180-200 grain) were almost considered "gamer" or "girlie loads" in some circles.

The Marlin 1894 "Cowboy" was introduced in .45 Colt.  It was a number of years before they added .44-40 and even later for .357.  Now it is mostly 357 Cowboys, with some .45 Cowboys.  No 44-40, but a limited run of .32 H&R Magnum Cowboys.  Even the first effort at Gamer guns was the .45 Cowboy special.  I even encountered a shooter that had a couple Vaquero cylinders and a Marlin Chamber reamed out for .38 S&W cartridges, claiming they were ".38 Special Cowboy shorts".

The .45 and .44-40 were King, Now .38s and mouse f@rt loads are KING! The King is dead, long live the King (or so the whimsical masses chant!)

[PJ Hardtack]

I went through two Marlin carbines in .44 mag, selling one to get my first Browning B-92 and t'other 'cause of it's MicroGroove rifling.

Two of my local CAS pals have Marlin rifles in 44-40 - lovely rifles! Box stock, smooth as glass and not fussy in any way. Wish I'd bought one when they were current.

We're happy that when we spread the CAS gospel to new shooters, we see them opt for .44s and .45s. Most of these guys were BP MLs or IPSC types who got tired of the equipment race. They like the simplicity of CAS. We emphasize the 'fun factor', all else being secondary after safety.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

In 1994, I was escaping from the racegun equipment race of the local action pistol league.  My first rifle was a Rossi in 44-40, then a Marlin 1894 Century Limited .44-40.  After a few years, I went to an earlier persona and switched to a Henry 44-40.  I returned to a Marlin Century Limited for my main match rifle, once again.  Absolutely the most accurate CAS rifle I have ever owned, even with the micro-groove.  I do love the .44-40 and have two 5 1/2" SAA clones in .44-40, too.

This is my current  Century:

[Big Goose]

Howdy T.L.,  Maybe this might help...http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,18006.msg228451.html#msg228451
the 44WCF if my favorite pistol caliber cartridge, and I love the Henrys, but Spencers are my favorite.  I had good luck hunting with my original 56-56, and recently started messin' around with an Armi Sport 56-50 carbine(had it in mind to build a Gemmer style sporting Spencer, cut tyhis carbine shoots so well that I'll have to find another Spencer for that project)
Good Luck!
Goose

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I have come up with a solution to the Henry vs Spencer question:  The 44-40 Spencer is sold.  My best friend has a 56-56 Spencer that I can borrow any time I want.  This works well, since I cast the bullets and load the rounds for him anyway.  For a main match rifle, I will use my Marlin .44-40 Century Limited.  In the late summer I have an extra income lined up that I will use to buy a 56-50 Armi-sport, brass, mold, and dies.  The Spencers are for when I want style, and the Marlin CL 44-40 is for speed.