What went wrong

[Galen5353]

I have a Winchester model 94 AE in 45 LC and a colt peacemaker clone in same caliber I have been reading and researching reloading for the 45 LC for several months and I settled on trail boss and clays I first reloaded 25 rounds with trail boss 225 grains bullet 6.0 powder charge and 25 rounds 200 grain bullet 6.0 powder charge and 25 rounds with clays 225 grains bullet had 6.0 powder charge took them to the range and see how they shot accuracy was okay but the one thing I noticed was the blow back on the brass and on the lever action sometimes I was getting stuff thrown in my face and lots of blowback on the brass so I started reading some more and researching my research showed that the brass was not expanding in the chamber properly so I look for heavier bullets 250 grains that I found at Huntington's in  Ororville they measured 454 and lubricated so I bought some according to Hodgdon company 250 grain cast minimum charge 4.2 maximum 5.1 with clays and settled on a charge 4.7 I put a crimp on the brass which I felt was heavy but I'm thinking it may not have been as heavy as I thought  out to the range again at 50 yards I got an okay grouping when I moved out to hundred yards it looked like a shotgun group and then I noticed on the shooting bench unburnt powder and I was also getting blowback on a brass my intentions are to be around the 800 and 900 ft./s and looking for the the best round to shoot out of both rifle and pistol once I get done experimenting with heathin powder and then I'm going to work on holy black

[wildman1]

Have ya tried annealling yer brass? WM

[Jefro]

Howdy Galen, the 45 straight walled case never was a rifle caliber, that's a modern thing that has not worked well. You'll hear all kinds of fixes, heavier 250gr bullet, tighter crimp, annealling brass...etc...etc. Some will work at reducing the blowback, but that's the nature of a 45 rifle, the problem only gets worse with BP. IMHO the only permanant fix is a 44/40. The 94 never did well with the straight walled cases, check out an Uberti 73 or Marlin in 44/40, you can shoot BP all day with no problem. I do shoot 45 revolvers with AJ's Cowboy 45 Special brass , 200gr Big Lube, and 3f BP, great little round for SASS. Good Luck
http://www.cowboy45special.com/


Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Trailrider]

What brand of brass are you using?  You need to find the thinnest brass (probably Winchester) available.  As to annealling the brass, you must be VERY CAREFUL NOT to anneal the case body farther back than half the case length. Improperly done, annealling can also result in the brass becoming too hard and cracking.  Unlike steel, in which you heat it and then quench to harden it, followed by reheating it somewhat to "draw" the temper, brass alloys must be heated red hot and then the anneal quenched in generally by quickly emmersing the brass in water.  Annealling pistol cartridges is generally not worth the effort. The only time I do it myself is when I make .56-56 Spencer central fire cases from .50-70 brass. I cut the brass nearly in half, which removes the softer portions at the mouth.  I set a weighted down object (pill bottle filled with a bullet and water) in a pan filled with water to the half-way length of the case, set the case on top of the support so half is sticking out of the water. The pan is placed on a plastic lazy susan so I can rotate the pan. Then I heat the case with a propane torch, rotating the pan to get even heat on the exposed portion of the case. When the case has begun to glow, I knock the case over into the water. But, as I said, this seldom pays with pistol rounds.

One thing you might try is to go to either Hodgdon's UNIVERSAL or Alliant Unique using 8.0 gr and a 250 gr. .454 bullet.  Roll crimp as much as you can without bulging the case mouth behind the beginning of the curve.  That may be your only solution, and if the chamber of your guns are too generous, it may not help. [I can assume no responsibility for the use of the above data in guns other than my own!]

Best of luck. 

[Galen5353]

Thank you wildman and Jefro for your replies as for annealing brass I have been reading up on annealing and researching it. Jefro you have given me good advice on wax bullets problems that I was having I have read many articles on the 45 LC as a rifle cartridge and they all pretty much agree with you so maybe sometime in the future when when I had the greenback for it I would very much like a 44/40 my youngest son gave me the lever action because he knows I've been wanting one for many years I have been looking at the big lube bullets both for the holy black and hearhin powder so it looks like I'll have to stick with the heathen powder for the lever action and the holy black for the revolver for now

[Galen5353]

Thank you trailrider for the information the brands of brass that I have are all cross the board I have bought some new and used some of gotten through the Internet at gun shows and Huntington's I read the post where people have shown the different thicknesses of the brass and I understand the differences but for what I figure the type of shooting than I do I don't think you would make much difference for the most part I have several friends who do reloading but they all reload for 223. 303. 30/06 I am the only one in my little group of friends that shoot wholly black all my kids learn how to shoot muzzle loaders 2 of my boys qualify for expert rifleman in the Marine Corps with the patient's one learns to shoot with flintlocks

[wildman1]

Galen, I have five different brands of brass, all annealled. I have 2 '92's and 2 Rugers all in Colt 45. I load anywhere from 20 gs of 2f Schuetzen to 40 gs of Schuetzen with a 250 g lead bullet and I get NO blowback with any of those loads. Guess I must just be lucky.  WM

[Lucky R. K.]

When you go to black powder try the following load.  I have been using it for a couple of years with no problems of blowback or barrel fouling.  I use several different brands of brass and I have never annealed a case.

Fill the case(32 grains of Goex will give you just a bit of compression) with 2F black powder and use a 250 grain bullet with plenty of lube.  I use Dick Dastardly's 250 grain Big Lube bullet with home made Emmerets lube. 

For the 45 Colt in a rifle you need a full load of powder, a big bullet and plenty of BLACK POWDER lube.  With that combination you shouldn't have any fouling problems.

Lucky 

[Jefro]

it looks like I'll have to stick with the heathen powder for the lever action and the holy black for the revolver for now

Oh no!! Don't give up that easy, you still should be able to shoot BP. Get some Schuetzen BP, burns much cleaner than Goex for the same price. Graff and Sons house brand is Schuetzen, that and a 250gr Big Lube should get you going. If the action starts to get a little sticky just spray and wipe at the unloading table between stages. Good Luck

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

ps; another thing to try to reduce blowback is only resize the case the depth of the bullet. Try a handfull at first to make sure they will feed in the chamber.

[cpt dan blodgett]

Lots of info on annealing brass on the web temp is in the 750 - 760 range, well before it gets red.  Red is much to hot.

[Shotgun Franklin]

I been shooting a .45 Colt lever action of some kind since 1997. Started with a '94 and now shoot a '73. While my cases shows a little blacking, I've never had any powder blow back into my face. I currently shoot Starline Brass with 6.8 gr of Red Dot and use a WW Large Pistol Primer with a 200 gr RNFP Bullet. I've shot straight walled rifles for years including .45/70 and .38/55. I have never had problems with either. My guess is that the problem is linked to light charges with light bullets.

[cpt dan blodgett]

I use relatively fast powders Nitro 100, Red Dot AA2 generally a little abobe the published stating loads for 44 spec or Cowboy Data Starting loads and get decent seal with 44 Mag cases out of a 92.  Get really good seal and clean cases when I load close to max SASS predicted velocities.   Have fired some 45 colt out of my handy rifle using approx 1.9 cc FFg Scheutzen a lube wad or cookie and 205 grain bullets,   Pretty good crimp cases a little dirty on outside but nothing back in the face.

My 92 likes to feed better with a good roll crimp so the rifle helps me load in a manner that facilitates a good powder burn.

[wildman1]

Lots of info on annealing brass on the web temp is in the 750 - 760 range, well before it gets red.  Red is much to hot.

I agree, red is too hot. Try annealling in a semi dark room, when the case starts ta change color dunk it. WM

[Tascosa Joe]

I over heard a guy telling a fellow to hold the case in his fingers and heat it with a propane torch.  When the case got too hot to hold drop it in the water.  Is this a good method for annealing?

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy Galen!  Welcome to the Wonderful World of "Whut the Heck?"

Ok, I'm just saying what works for me and about 3 others who tried my method and stuck with it.   I'm NOT saying any of the information put out here already is wrong or unnecessary, just what works for Me.

I'll start with the guns I shoot and their barrel lengths so you'll have some basis of comparison.  I have been shooting 45 Colt now about 11 years, from Rifle #1) (Uberti) 1866 Winchester 24" Sporting Rifle & #2) (Rossi) 1892 Winchester 24" Sporting Rifle; for Revolvers, there are #1) (AWA) Colt SAA w/ 7.5" barrel, #2 & #3) 2 ea. different (Uberti) 1875 Remington Army w/ 7.5" barrel(s) and #4) (Old Model) Ruger Vaquero w/ 3.5" barrel.  My friends who use these same loads use a variety of guns but they include another 1875 Remington, various Colt Clones in several barrel lengths, genuine Colt SAA revolvers in 7.5" as well as 5.5" (the exact lengths are approximate except the 7.5" figures) and in rifles, a couple more Uberti-clone Win. 66 and 1873 repeaters, a Lightning (the Beretta version) and a Colt-Burgess. ......  OK - now for the details:

The one consistent component is Winchester cases, BUT ... there are also a few Starlines as well as some RP Nickle cases that get used occasionally.  I don't load my brass for them, they bought the same components as I and, with only a few exceptions, load their own. 

I (we) have NEVER annealed a case.  It's not that I don't think it's worthwhile, I just that I have so many, I don't bother.  I bought 2000 Winchester cases to start with, and have more now as folks who planned on throwing their brass away got convinced to "throw away" that brass to ME!  I used to work at a Gun Store with an attached Range. (PopGuns, Indianapolis)  I'm a brass "Hound, Scrounger, Moocher" ... whatever ya wanna call me, but I grab what I can wherever I shoot.  And I keep track of how many loading on my cases I do - I'm now up to 12 reloads each case on my main stock of Win brass.  What little Smokeyless I (we) shoot is the 5.1 grs. of Clays recipe from their website.  That pushes 250 gr. bullets; some from Valiant, some from other Hard-Cast makers, but most with the PRS BigLube boolit - and yes, I use a soft bullet with BP-friendly lube for Smokeyless loads.  There have been a few 225-230 gr. bullets along with a few of the 200 gr bullets as well, but the heaviest bullet with the "stoutest" load is what works best.  I put a firm crimp, but not so much that I get case-mouth failures often - no more than normal.  (I've probably lost 20-30 cases over the years to cracking, and surprisingly, 5 of those were after the first loading!)

My #1 load is to fill the case with enough 3f Goex powder that I get about 1/8" (.125") compression when I seat the PRS 250 BigLube boolit.  That is a volumetric load and usually weighs about 32.5 to 37 grs. of powder depending on the lot of powder I have.  With the last  batch I bought (I split a case of 50 with a friend) my current charge weighs about 34.6-35.1 grs., when weighed.  I leave my powder bar set so that it meters out the same VOLUME of powder all the time, and I only weigh it just to see what it comes to whenever I change lots of powder, switch to Pyrodex, or change granulation size to 2f.  (Which isn't often.)  Basically, I weigh to check to see that my powder measure setting doesn't change; as  I'm sure you know, this is recommended for safety with ANY manufacturer's measure.  I use Dillon equipment - BP & smokeyless, but have used RCBS, Bonanza, and Lyman measures as well as Lee yellow dippers for BP before I got my "Big Blue Wonder" setup.


I use mostly Winchester & CCI primers, but not Magnums, 'tho the Winchester primers SAY they're for regular or Magnum needs.  I HAVE used Mag primers before, but BP really "lights" easily and doesn't really need the extra $ it costs for the Mag primers.

OK - I've rambled off in too much detail ... perhaps ... but you now see how another guy does it and is happy with the results.  I get VERY little blackening on the cases - but I'd be a liar if I said they came out clean.  Plus the more I shoot, the dirtier they come out.  What I DON'T get is a lot of unburned powder or debris, either in the chambers, bores, or in the actions of notoriously dirty-from-45Colt-loads-in-toggle-link-guns!  And NEVER had my own gun spit unburnt powder at me (or anyone else I know of.)  As Jefro posted, only modern rifles have been chambered in 45 Colt - the old ones weren't at all so it is a "new" issue with the rifles.

Works for me.  Have fun!

[PJ Hardtack]

Tascosa Joe

Sounds like a great method for a masochist! Were you one of those kids that always had to stand as close as possible to the fire?

Shiloh, Meacham and others are offering annealing tools that fit onto a hand drill or electric screwdriver. They go for $25 plus S&H. If you have access to a lathe, you're in business.
I made up mine by taking various cases to the local hardware store and socketing copper fittings together to get the right combo and depth for the calibre. I use a socket bit as the attachment to the screwdriver.

I can anneal 45-70, 50-70, .45 COLT, whatever, by changing a few fittings. There is a learning curve and I ruined one batch of 45-70 by over heating, the most common error. Experience is the best teacher. Rocket science it ain't .... ;>)

[Galen5353]

I appreciate all the replies as I have been reading over the different posts it reminds me when I first got into shooting black powder some 35 years ago. the first sayings I learn powder. Patch. Ball. Or the damn thing won't go off at all In the different methods that everybody uses every gun every powder every lube are just slightly different once you find that works the best and stick to it. It is only been in the past several years that have gotten into suppository weapons everyone has good information I just need to glean what would work best for me

[Steel Horse Bailey]

I appreciate all the replies as I have been reading over the different posts it reminds me when I first got into shooting black powder some 35 years ago. the first sayings I learn powder. Patch. Ball. Or the damn thing won't go off at all In the different methods that everybody uses every gun every powder every lube are just slightly different once you find that works the best and stick to it. It is only been in the past several years that have gotten into suppository weapons everyone has good information I just need to glean what would work best for me

Very true!  A lot of the fun is in the "tying" and experimenting!

[Popa Kapoff]

I load with trail boss and love it. I try Accurate #5 and the stuff would not burn up I found a ton of un-brunt powder in my guns. With the 200gr .452 bullet I load 6.7 I believe hornady books max load is 6.9 when I loaded lite I got a lot of key holing in my paper targets , and the loads where still easy shooting for me.