Bullet weight for SASS

mad1ben2 · February 17, 2012, 08:55:39 AM

I'm sure this has been discussed a million times but a quick search didn't pull up much...

What's the theory behind light vs medium vs heavy weight bullets. Seems CAS shooters lean towards lighter bullets (160gr 45C, 105gr 38spl) but I've heard from some other type of competetion shooters (IDPA, etc) that they believe a heavy bullet (250 gr 45ACP, 160gr 38/357) with a fast burning powder (like Clays) gives the lightest recoil...

Seems to be contradictory...

Obviously the objective is light recoil to allow for the fastest followup shots..

What are the thoughts here?

Jefro · February 17, 2012, 09:42:15 AM

Howdy, for the most part yer gonna get heavier recoil with a heavier bullet. The most popular bullet is the 200gr 45LC, and 125 38sp. While shooting on the light side is popular, the top guns will tell you there is a point of diminished returns. Because of this most of the top shooters use a stouter load than allota other wannabees. With too light a load the time it takes for the bullet to get to the target will cause most (unconsciously) to wait till you hear the ding before firing the next round. Sorta like this "Bang.........Ding..Bang.........Ding" What you want to hear is "Bang-Ding-Bang-Ding" The same thing applies to the action work done on your guns, too light a spring and there is a delay in how fast the hammer falls. Evil Roy and other top shooters will suggest the hammer spring be strong enough to set off any brand of primer. I've seen folks with springs so light they would only set off Federals reliably, that's too light. Good Luck

Jefro

Relax-Enjoy

rickk · February 17, 2012, 09:49:13 AM

With fixed sights the bullet weight and velocity determine if it will hit where it points or not.

mad1ben2 · February 17, 2012, 10:46:36 AM

Jefro, you nailed it. Switching over to 38s form 45C and being advised to go with 105gr and tune hammer spring for Federal primers... interesting to hear your take on the super light bullets and Federal primers...

Quote from: Jefro on February 17, 2012, 09:42:15 AM
Howdy, for the most part yer gonna get heavier recoil with a heavier bullet. The most popular bullet is the 200gr 45LC, and 125 38sp. While shooting on the light side is popular, the top guns will tell you there is a point of diminished returns. Because of this most of the top shooters use a stouter load than allota other wannabees. With too light a load the time it takes for the bullet to get to the target will cause most (unconsciously) to wait till you hear the ding before firing the next round. Sorta like this "Bang.........Ding..Bang.........Ding" What you want to hear is "Bang-Ding-Bang-Ding" The same thing applies to the action work done on your guns, too light a spring and there is a delay in how fast the hammer falls. Evil Roy and other top shooters will suggest the hammer spring be strong enough to set off any brand of primer. I've seen folks with springs so light they would only set off Federals reliably, that's too light. Good Luck

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

Jefro · February 17, 2012, 11:54:52 AM

Howdy again, nothing wrong with 105 in the revolver, just make sure to push them fast enough so there is no diminished returns, fast to the target with enough ding for the spotters. Most powders (not all) will require more powder to push the lighter bullet. I use Federal for everything but BP. They have the possibility to go bang when misalinged with some primer feed systems. FWIW Heather and I both tried the 105, but we like the 125 better. Both of us shoot GF sometimes and we like a little recoil to get in rhythm, I shoot 158gr BP anyhow

. Check out page 30 of the Hodgdon Basic Manual PDF, that's where Cowboy Action loads start. The starting load for Clays is 2.5 for both 90 and 125gr bullet, way too light IMHO. We tried Clays and found 3.2 to be about right. However we shoot Red Dot now and prefer it over Clays. With Red Dot 3.2 to 3.5 is good for 105, 125, 158gr. You just have to try some different loads and go to the range with a chrony to see what you like. Good Luck

Hodgdon Basic Manual PDF

Jefro

Relax-Enjoy

mad1ben2 · February 17, 2012, 01:15:06 PM

Thanks again Jefro. Great info and a lot of help... I love Clays and have used it in many of my pistol cartridge reloads... and I'll likely try some with the 38s too, but being 'guided' towards American Select and Red Dot... the specific load is 3.2gr AS with the 105gr bullets.

I really do like playing around with different loads and seeing how they're different... Maybe instead of buying a ton of the 105gr I'll pick up some of those and the 125gr and see what my personal preference is before I make a bulk purchase.

Thx, scott

Steel Horse Bailey · February 17, 2012, 05:57:12 PM

Mad1 Ben2 - do you want to win competition or do you want to have fun shooting authentic-type guns in the calibers they were designed for?

Sound like you are talking to "gamers." They want to win at all costs. (And most don't, but they have fun trying!) Nothing wrong with that at all, but what do YOU want? We all "play" for different reasons. If I wanna shoot light competition bullets fast, I'll shoot modern guns loaded for that purpose. When I put on my Cowboy or Cavalry duds, I want to live ... and shoot ... like they did back then! And to do that, I shoot Colt clones or Remingtons or S&Ws shooting Black Powder in cartridges created back then! I shoot 44 Russian, 44 Colt, & 45 Colt. All of them with 200gr or 220gr 44 cal bullets or 250gr 45 cal bullets. (As close to original as possible in the 21st Century.)

Occasionally, I DO shoot smokeyless loads, and I use Clays then, but still with 200 or 250 gr bullets. I've also used Win 231 with great success, and I like Titegroup. A LOT of folks like Trail Boss, especially those who shoot big cartridges that don't look right with Clays, 231 or other fast powders, but I haven't tried any yet. It all depends on what ya want from this game! There's plenty of room for us authenticity nuts and gamers too. It's all good!

Personally, BP does EVERYTHING I want, (and more) but you are shooting your guns, not me! Have fun, pard! Some of the fun is trying all the neat guns and different powders and shooting at steel bad guys who clang loudly when hit hard with big bullets!

Trooper Bill · February 17, 2012, 10:23:00 PM

Steel Horse...that was an execellent view point, shared by myself and many other traditionalist shooters. I guess I might go even abit futher, I have many ctg. frontier weapons that have never fired any other powder than black, and in my hands never will.
Thanks for sharing that viewpoint!

Popa Kapoff · February 25, 2012, 08:43:54 PM

I just got done shooting 200gr lrnfp backed by 6.7 to 6.9gr of Trailboss like that load. Since I ran out of those bullets and have like 1000 bullets of 230gr lrn Hormady Frontier lead. Lojpjpad up 30 test round at 5.5 gr 6.0gr 6.5gr of Trailboss ten of each I'll see how they shoot tomorrow. I've load some 200gr with Accurate A5 just thought it was messier and went back to trailboss.

Steel Horse Bailey · February 26, 2012, 01:15:08 AM

Quote from: Trooper Bill on February 17, 2012, 10:23:00 PM
Steel Horse...that was an execellent view point, shared by myself and many other traditionalist shooters. I guess I might go even abit futher, I have many ctg. frontier weapons that have never fired any other powder than black, and in my hands never will.
Thanks for sharing that viewpoint!

Thanks Bill the Trooper. There's plenty of "room" for all of us here. The "shoot fast" crowd AND the authenticity crowd too.

I love the authenticity part of it, as is easily determined by my posts. The last time I shot for speed (... and accuracy is #1 in my book, as long as it's fast, too ...) was in Iraq during Desert Storm. There were no timers on our tanks and it ended up with the score at 10 (for us 3 good guys) to 0 (for the bad guys.) That's enough for me. Now they time me with a sundial. However, I maintain that since I take more time to finish a match, I'm having more fun!

It's all how ya look at it!

Dynamite Bill · February 26, 2012, 05:47:10 PM

kungratchewlashons on tha sundial, thay uze ah kallindur whin i shoot.

Steel Horse Bailey · February 26, 2012, 08:42:43 PM

Pettifogger · February 26, 2012, 08:47:07 PM

Quote from: mad1ben2 on February 17, 2012, 08:55:39 AM
I'm sure this has been discussed a million times but a quick search didn't pull up much...

What's the theory behind light vs medium vs heavy weight bullets. Seems CAS shooters lean towards lighter bullets (160gr 45C, 105gr 38spl) but I've heard from some other type of competetion shooters (IDPA, etc) that they believe a heavy bullet (250 gr 45ACP, 160gr 38/357) with a fast burning powder (like Clays) gives the lightest recoil...

Seems to be contradictory...

Obviously the objective is light recoil to allow for the fastest followup shots..

What are the thoughts here?

When the IPSC/IDFA shooters are talking "lighter" recoil it is a completely different thing than CAS. The minimum power factor for IPSC is 125 for minor and 160 for major. The SASS minimum power factor is 60. It's an apples and oranges comparison. In SASS a light bullet at a sedate velocity will always have less recoil than a heavy bullet at a sedate velocity.