Unusual 1873

Short Knife Johnson · September 16, 2011, 11:24:50 PM

Greetings all.

Have a bit of a Twilight Zone moment and maybe someone could help.

Came across a rifle for sale. An otherwise standard 1873 rifle. Half round barrel, about 65 to 70% condition, chambered in .44 cal. Asking $1350 now. I'll have to steal and post some pictures. The initials "HA" crudely engraved (and I use that term loosely) on the starboard side on the forend. The barrel is off of a Whitney-Kennedy rifle. There are indexing marks on the breech and action that line up. The tulip on the barrel is somewhat abbreviated compared to the Kennedy rifle I own - almost as it the barrel shank was re-cut, but perhaps not quite.

I know that Whitneyville Armory leased space to Winchester until Winchester bought him out about 1886 or so. Would anyone have heard another factory original example of this. I could see the occasional use of surplus Kennedy barrels for a rushed special order, but am not willing to wager that it would be authentic, and neither a frontier gunsmith fix. I would like to add this to my toy box, and would like to make the seller an informed counter offer if it is indeed not authentic. I'm not one of those Winchester hoarders, I just have a passion for the unusual.

Any input is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Short Knife Johnson · September 19, 2011, 09:42:46 PM

Never mind, I went ahead and bought it. I'll have to post some pictures when it shows up.

Grizzly Adams · September 20, 2011, 08:27:09 PM

I have researched the Model of 1873 a lot over the years, and have never heard of Winchester using Whitney Kennedy barrels on the 1873. Winchester was pretty territorial. I can't see them putting anything non-Winchester on one of their rifles. My money would be on a gunsmith "fix. Sounds like you have a very interesting rifle. Congratulations on a neat find!

Short Knife Johnson · September 21, 2011, 01:08:17 PM

Well I took another look at the photos supplied and compared them to my Kennedy. The barrel does NOT appear to be set back for a new shank to be cut. To my knowledge, the half-round feature is something that never appeared on Whitneyville Armory rifles. They did not do custom orders as did Winchester and many others. When Eli Whitney Jr. sold to Oliver Winchester, there would have been scores of leftover parts. Would anyone know what the shank thread on 1873's and Kennedys might be?

Have spoken with Warren, the firearms curator at the Buffalo Bill Historical Center. He tells me he's seen just about every type of pipe screwed onto Winchester actions, but a factory letter would prove if that was the original configuration. If this were any other barrel than a Kennedy, I would dismiss this entirely. He went on to tell me if this is in fact legitimate, then this would be something of note.

When I get it all together, I will post it all.

rbertalotto · October 17, 2011, 08:08:22 AM

OK, so where are the freak'n pictures already!

Buck Stinson · October 18, 2011, 12:14:31 PM

I agree with Grizzly. I can also say without a shadow of a doubt, that Winchester would NEVER have used any surplus parts from any other manufacturer, on guns of their own make. Yes, I'm sure there were parts left over after Winchester purchased the company, but by the time that happened, there couldn't have been much left. Winchester bought the machinery and the name and dumped what was left. They never intended to make up any Kennedy's or use what few parts that were left over.

Short Knife Johnson · October 18, 2011, 07:36:55 PM

Am thinking you guys are right. The extractor groove looks like the one cut on my Kennedy rifle. But for the price I got it for, I'm not even going to worry about it, get it running, and appreciate it for the historical oddity it is. Apologies for the lack of pictures. Was busy helping with harvest, and now am in a scramble to ready myself to let the sawbones (literally - an orthopaedic surgeon) have his way with me in two days. Promsing pics tomorrow.

Short Knife Johnson · October 19, 2011, 12:37:43 PM

Alrighty then. Finally got around to firing up my photographic apparatus, and pictures are here.

The light wasn't to kind - this was the best I could do with my point and shoot.

The picture of the barrel stamp isn't that great. The metal is patina brown. It needs a bit of loving to bring it 'round, but I am quite liking this little character. The closer I look at it, the more likely the barrel is added on later, but it was fun to be hopeful.

Note the tulip where the octagon ends (or begins). Previous owner marking his property. It goes well with my other '73 that has had the same treatment - but in a much more caring fashion.

Reads "WHITNEYVILLE ARMORY HARTFORD CT. USA KENNEDY"

Any constructive thoughts? What does everyone think of this?

Wolfgang · October 23, 2011, 07:15:53 PM

Pretty nice '73 . . it'd help if yur initials was H.A.

. . . how is the bore ?

Short Knife Johnson · October 23, 2011, 09:46:43 PM

It seems pretty shootable. It may wind up getting re-lined, but I'll see how it works first.

hhughh · October 24, 2011, 09:43:57 PM

SKJ, Do you have the serial number range/ yr of mfg on it?

Hugh

Short Knife Johnson · October 24, 2011, 10:59:04 PM

I splashed out and am waiting on a letter from the Buffalo Bill Historical Center. 59,000 and some serial number so about 1880 manufacture date. The results will be posted here. I'd sure like to know who "H.A." was and why the barrel was replaced. My other '73 is an 1890 dated rifle. Run of the mill full octagon pipe with "D.C." lovingly engraved in the top rear corner on the starboard side of the buttstock.

hhughh · October 25, 2011, 03:22:08 AM

See what you get back on your letters. I may, just mmmaaaayyyybbbee.........A stretch, but I might have a suggestion as to H. A.

Waiting with baited breath....lol

Hugh

Long Knife Rich · October 25, 2011, 03:48:31 AM

Besides being a sharp looking rifle, you did a really nice job on the photos.

Short Knife Johnson · October 25, 2011, 07:24:03 AM

Quote from: hhughh on October 25, 2011, 03:22:08 AM
See what you get back on your letters. I may, just mmmaaaayyyybbbee.........A stretch, but I might have a suggestion as to H. A.

Waiting with baited breath....lol

Hugh

No, it wasn't your grandfather's rifle, and if it was you can't have it back.

Thanks Ostego Jack. I just did a rush job in the backyard on an elk shed I found four years ago. Discovered this summer it makes a good rifle rack for doing photos. The light was pretty harsh(due to the angle of the sun this time of year at this latitude), and my Lumix point and shoot couldn't seem to find it's groove. At least the dandilions were all gone.

hhughh · October 25, 2011, 10:13:37 AM

No, not my grandfather, and if it were I wouldn't ask for it back. lol. Probably would ask for more pictures, though. Do you know anything of the "locale" where it was owned/used?

Hugh

Short Knife Johnson · November 14, 2011, 07:22:16 PM

The factor letter showed up the other day. I don't have a scanner to put it on a nice image for everybody. It reads thusly.

Dear Mr. Huber

The manufacturer's data for Model 1873, serial number 59441, as extracted bfrom the original Winchester records housed in the museum are as follows:

Serial number application date not available

Type: Rifle
Barrel type: Round
Trigger: Plain
Received in warehouse on October 4, 1880
Shipped from warehouse on October 14, 1880, Order number 22532

No other information is available for this serial number

Another interesting part of history if nothing else.

Fox Creek Kid · February 13, 2012, 01:59:12 AM

Quote from: Grizzly Adams on September 20, 2011, 08:27:09 PM
I have researched the Model of 1873 a lot over the years, and have never heard of Winchester using Whitney Kennedy barrels on the 1873. Winchester was pretty territorial. I can't see them putting anything non-Winchester on one of their rifles. My money would be on a gunsmith "fix. Sounds like you have a very interesting rifle. Congratulations on a neat find!

FWIW, there is a DOCUMENTED '73 Win. with a REMINGTON barrel fitted by Win. Go figure. Just when I say "never" something turns up. I now say "to the best knowledge of modern research..."

http://www.rarewinchesters.com/gunroom/1873/M73-007043/M73-007043.shtml

Short Knife Johnson · February 13, 2012, 07:06:52 AM

Yeah, I have since done some function testing with this rifle. The headspace sems correct, but there is a chamber issue. When a loaded round is chambered, the rifling grips the bullet and last 1/16th of an inch of the case. The bullet stuck in the bore when the lever was opened. Looks like whomever fitted the barrel on did not take the time to fix the chamber.

This will require more work than I had hoped. The chamber may have to be run out because I would realy like to avoid doing a liner. A cerrosafe cast may be in order.

That said, In speaking with a fellow I know who collect Kennedy rifles, this barrel could be very significant in of itself.

The Pathfinder · February 13, 2012, 07:29:33 AM

Short Knife, can I ask what yer letter run ya'? I just came upon a rebuilding project, it's an 1881 2nd model rifle but has a third model barrel on it. I going to rebuild it using as many original parts as I can but will use modern toggle and springs. Seeing your letter results just got me to wondering where this old lady started out. Thanks