Walking foot?

[Massive]

I have my sights on an Adler 105 model without a walking foot.  There is a guy on another forum who has this model and likes it, but I am not sure it is a good idea because a) a holster machine should have a walking foot?  b) will kill resale, though the price is great?

Anyone have any advice on this?  I have to bust a move before someone else takes it.  My inclination at the moment is to pass.  It would almost take someone to say it is better not to have a walking foot, for some reason; or to say it is an easy fix, but I don't really see that happening.

[TN Mongo]

Machines without a walking foot have a "dog" that moves the material along.  This works well for fabric, but can leave marks (abrasions) on the bottom side of your leather project.  Some people smooth out the serations on the dog and successfully use these machines for leather.  I've sewn a lot of fabric on non-walking foot machines, but very little leather. 

Maybe someone with more knowledge about using these machines for leather, like Outrider, will chime in.  Most of my leather sewing is done on a Juki 441 copy or by hand.

[outrider]

Massive...what model adler is that?  I believe the Adler 105-64 is a needle feed walking foot machine...same as the Juki 441, the Cobra and the ferdco

[Massive]

It's a 105-25MO  Which is designed for making moccasins.  The guy on Leaterhworker net, replaced a few pieces, and got a high function sewing machine for various heavy uses, but I would be concerned about not getting a reliable feed without the walking foot.  Maybe less so with something like a belt, but a holster and related items have a lot of ups and downs and might not feed well without the walking foot.  Actually in the thread over there he mentions his 105-25MO has bottom and top feed.

It's funny, because it is a 105 class machine, it's large, it has a deep cylinder arm, and you can see yourself sewing a saddle on it, yet it is one of two 105 models made for assembling moccasins.  It looks in excellent condition and costs about 1/3rd what the harness model does.

[outrider]

If this is a double...top and bottom feed machine...then it is a walking foot...it has a bottom feed dog as well as the needle feed..........in order for the needle to feed it must move in a rearward direction once it enters the material...as I said earlier..both the Ferdco Pro-2000 and the Cobra Class 4 are both dual feed machines  ...the center presser foot is what moves..not the outer presser foot.

Ask Steve at Cobra...he will give you straight info....also if you are looking for a decent used machine don't overlook the used machinery and classified board on the Ferdco website.

[outrider]

Massive,

Go to the Ferdco website and take a look at the numerous machines that are posted on their "Swap Board"

[DUKE DEADEYE NUKEM]

I bought my machine with an hour of training by a nice fella name Steve. Well one hour just does not cut it. The machine are basically for some one that sews not stop day end and day out that really knows his way around a machine or has a buddy that can train them. I have sewn now for 9 months and all my products could never be shelved or sold even on ebay even though I'm a master craftsmen/engineer of 30 years or so. Lots they don't tell you here on the leather forum.
Like for one you have to presew all you hole when running down the cartridge loop section at the top of the belt because the strip for the cartridge loops adds thickness to the belt thus causing a ramp so to speak that forces the foot to want to wander off the belt, the dents the walking foot leaves in the leather,I could go on forever.
THESE MACHINES ARE NOT FOR AMATEURS
If you sew with a needle and awl just stay with it because I could have had all this done in half the time with a needle and awl and a lacing horse and the less anguish in my life than if I  had 3 ex wives and alamony.
And before someones says "Duke you need to attend Be-ankies  holster making school" my stuff HERE looks twice as good as anything that EVER came out of that Te-mecula plant and that was the first belt I have ever done too.
Fortunately none will see my amateur mistakes/flaws in the remote undisclosed forest we will be residing in.    

Now I see why all the master's here all sew by hand.
I will be selling the machine and hand sewing from now on!
This will also be my last post.......... Thanks all for helping
<stepping down from soap box>

[Massive]

I've been running sewing machines and hand sewing since I was 13, and I am 52 today.  I have never run a large leather machine, though mostly what I notice is how slow they run so I am hoping for the best.  I guess I come at it from a different perspective.  I am looking forward to the challenge, and I will approach it like any other skill I have self-taught.  I just hope it isn't as hard as TIG welding.

In some ways sewing machines are similar to TIG.  I spent a very frustrating week (an hour here or there per day) trying to get my walking foot machine to sew very light sleeping bag material.  I probably shouldn't have bothered since it was running through my Singer featherweight easily enough.  But my walking foot sail machine is supposed to sew spinnakers which are equally light.  Like TIG, there are a million possible settings, and some hand skills.  Having one thing wrong is enough so one is always chasing a solution.  Then one meets someone who works in a workplace setting and has a machine with presets, and thinks it is all so easy...

I guess if one doesn't need a sewing machine and it is driving one crazy, why bother.   I want one so when I get that next order for a lined belt for a guy with a 56 inch waist, I can just smile all the way to the bank.  But realistically I could pass on one also.  I hope it will be a pleasant experience one way or another.  I would like to use both hand and machine methods in the future.  I am not a big believer in the superiority of hand sewing for strength, not given some of the thread we have today.  But it remains the sign of quality in certain fields, and is sometimes the only way to get stuff done.

[TN Mongo]

After buying a Tippman Boss for my first machine, I would be in total agreement with Duke Deadeye.  The only reason I still own it is that it is the best $1300 hole punch I have ever owned.  Now after having a Cobra 4 for two years, I don't know how I survived hand stitching everything.  Don't get me wrong, hand stitching produces beautiful results.  I still hand stitch the welts on my heavy lined holsters.  I love my Cobra 4 (Steve isn't paying me a dime to say this).  I can switch thicknesses without adjusting anything and it cuts my production time tremendously.  Yes, there was a bit of a learning curve, but I feel my investment was well worth it.

I know Outrider loves his Ferdco machine and the stuff he has sewn on it looks great.  I've sewn a lot of fabric before I got my power machine, but it only took a short time before I was sewing great stuff with my 441 Juki copy.

[outrider]

Mongo....They are basically the same machine with different name plates

[TN Mongo]

Outrider, I know buddy, I just didn't want to slight your very nice version of the machine.

[Slowhand Bob]

What I have been doing with my main seams, first I go to the next longer stitch length over what I used for liners.  Next I remove the thread from the needle and then run the main seam holes and they are now falling in the grooves, top and bottom, pretty good now.  When I replace the thread in the needle and let the machine follow the punched holes I get a really nice top stitch with very few problems.  I am pretty much at a point that my most often complaints will deal with the occasional bottom stitch appearance and the fact that I seldom get a true locked stitch on the back stitch. 

OH, I forgot to mention that I do occasionally fall asleep and run off the trail, but I can not blame that on the machine!   

[outrider]

Slowhand...been there done that.............

[outrider]

Ya know...some day I would really like to find out exactly what the difference is between the 441 clones...if any...with the exception of price...

[Massive]

I've run into several people who import from over there, in particular a guy who was trying to bring in quality welders to compete with miller, etc...   They  go over they an look around at the trade shows, which are unimaginably large.  They find a manufacturer to work with.  Once they have selected the machines they want to bring in, and packaged them with other stuff (think needles feet etc...), their main role is quality control.  This requires them to be over in the factory on a regular basis, at various key times.  They have to actually watch the machines go through their final process.  Apparently these companies don't make every part, so all of a sudden a guy might see some part come into production from a new supplier, and it will be a lemon.  They have to get that out of there (back home this ends up as one of those import delays we all dread).  My welder guy does final testing on each machine both in China, and some of it when he gets the machines out to customers.  Certain setting may be better done at the last minute.

My feeling is that these machines in china are going to factories, repair shops.  But over here they are most often being bought by hobby guys, or others without inhouse repair.  So the machines have to go out perfect.  Even though the wholesale is like 1/6 of what we pay, if it has to go back to the seller, after traveling half away around the world, it is a money looser.

They do a lot of other stuff, like specify graphics, colours, quality of powdercoat, etc...  In welding the accessories are a biggie, the same thing with machine tools.  I bought a lathe that came with a lot of tools, but every one snapped when I loaded it.  Imagine what that does to your confidence in the machine and the store that sold it.  I have never bought another piece of tooling from them.  Yet that was just some freebie they tossed in as an afterthought.

So I pay no attention when someone tells me some product comes from the same factory as another.  It is meaningless unless the person holding hands is the same.

[Slowhand Bob]

And all those parts that get rejected on site are put into machines going to Harbour Freight and Ebay!

[TN Mongo]

Slowhand,

I use almost the same process on my welt seam.  I mark the holes with a stitching wheel and then punch them with my Tippman Boss without thread.  After gluing and sewing on a lining (I don't stitch the welt side with the machine) I take it back to the Tippman and go through the welt seam holes again.  I repeat the process yet again after I glue on a welt strip.

I carefully line up my top and bottom holes where my machine stitching ends by the welt seam and I glue the welt together.  After pounding the seam a little, I head back to the Tippman for one more run.  Then I hand sew the welt seam through the pre-punched holes.  It really doesn't take much time to hand sew the welt and I think it eliminates some of the problems I had when trying to sew a thick welt with the power machine.

I don't think I'll ever use the Tippman to sew again, but it works great for punching holes.

[Slowhand Bob]

TN, sometimes they can be a bear to keep set up properly but they are capable of sewing also.  I would shellac (anything to slick/harden) home-made manilla shims and had to be very careful about  pressure on the needle BUT it would work.  On the rare occasions I set up to do a match, I wish I had mine back to use as a portable.  The machine I wanted to sell just sets idle in the shop while the BOSS gets regular use from the guy who bought it!  That machine was a low three digit serial number and I will never find another as cheap as I sold that one for.

[TN Mongo]

Slowhand, Outrider played with my Tippman a few months ago.  After adjusting a few things, he said that it was running fine.  I just haven't had enough free time to try it again.  I hold grudges, and I guess I'm still mad at that machine for the problems it's caused me in the past.